OK, since yesterday's posting of the HASIMOTO/ISHIN_no_KAI post mentions facism and the like, it is necessary to post some other articles relevant to the political questions at hand that have also been selectively deleted from the ("we don't have a political agenda") JapanToday website.

This issues surrounding the national anthem, Kimigayo, are somewhat involved. First of all, Japan didn't have a national flag or anthem at the outset of the Meiji Period, so they were to a large degree adopted in order to facilitate Japan's joining the community of nation states. The poem is likely from the Nara period (maybe the early Heian Period). Nara was the first settled capital of Japan, and would have facilitated a composition evoking such imagery. Prior to the establishment of the capital at Nara, the capital would move with the succession of the new Emperor. One other point of note is that the first music for the anthem was composed by an Irishman, but changed ten years later. Check the wiki entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimigayo

What complicates the current status is the association of the anthem with the Emperor cult and militarism in circa WWII era Imperial Japan. Such symbols are even now trying to be appropriated by certain elements of Japanese society for private political gain, at the expense of open society.

These articles are copies that I'd been archiving, and were recovered from a hard disk that had been rendered inoperable by a hacking attack on my computer--one of several. Note that this topic is one of the most commented on topics, and by and large the comments are critical of the decisions of the Supreme Court of Japan and the actions of the government of Osaka. There are a couple of related articles having equally long comment sections that I have not yet recovered.

These articles, which have been edited, are of Kyodo News Service derivation, a subscription service to which JapanToday cancelled their subscription before selectively deleting some of the Kyodo articles on their site, and then lying to me and saying that they had to delete all of them due to a contractual obligation.

Again, please excuse the formatting, etc.

And be forewarned that I'd taken a bit of literary license in penning some of these posts cloaked in anonymity.

Top court again OKs punishing teachers for snubbing Japan flag, anthem

NATIONAL JUL. 15, 2011 - 06:34AM JST

TOKYO —

The Supreme Court again turned down appeals filed by school teachers and clerks against being punished for refusing … singing of the Kimigayo national anthem at school events.

…upheld high court decisions rejecting the plaintiffs’ argument that forcing them to stand and sing the anthem violated their constitutionally guaranteed freedom of thought and conscience.

Comments

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ihavegreatlegsJUL. 15, 2011 - 07:36AM JST

Make them sing loud especially if tone deaf like SMAP and others without talent.

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sillygirlJUL. 15, 2011 - 07:42AM JST

this is so wrong.

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NuckinFutzJUL. 15, 2011 - 07:48AM JST

A nation that forces patriotism upon its citizens is a weak nation with ineffectual leaders who rule through corruption and intimidation ... Welcome to Japan!

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SmorkianJUL. 15, 2011 - 07:57AM JST

I personally think people should stand for the flag and anthem but in no way should they be REQUIRED to stand. It's sad the courts choose to take away people's constitutional rights.

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Skeptical HippoJUL. 15, 2011 - 08:34AM JST

Any word on the punishment for the USA military personnel in Japan, who (even when in civilian clothes) are required by regulations to place their right hand over their heart when the Kimigayo is performed, but refuse to do so?

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NetNinjaJUL. 15, 2011 - 08:37AM JST

Here's the Green Light. Punish them all if they don't sing. Bring back Panopticism, those that don't sing, let them be punished. If you see them not singing, please let us know. We'll punish them.

Didn't Hitler punish anybody who didn't raise their hands? Lemme check here....just one sec...Ah yes. Let socialism rear it's ugly head again.

His teeth were smashed in with rifle butts, his scalp was branded with a swastika from a red-hot iron and he was hospitalised. He was forced to dig his own grave for a mock execution, and his body became a mass of bruises and wounds. His tormentors tried to force him to sing the Nazi song Horst Wessel Lied. He refused to give in and sang the Internationale. " Thanks to his will power he resisted all attempts to humiliate him" (Augustin Souchy).

First, the Dutch refused to accept the mantle of Nazism - they fought to retain their identity as Dutch. Similarly, Jehovah's Witnesses also refused Nazism. They courageously continued their work identifying themselves as servants of Jehovah. They refused to bow to Hitler or to accept the tenets of National Socialism despite the most brutal strategies of the Nazis. For example, Jehovah's Witnesses were the only group that could leave the concentration camps at any time simply by signing a statement denouncing their faith. Under threat of death, faced with torture, starvation, and beatings, few signed the declaration.

I think this last one is the kicker!!

RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION IN HISTORY

If there was one Christian group which rejected the Hitler-led German National Socialist State without compromise, it was the Jehovah's Witnesses. With around 25,000 members in Germany in 1933, the Jehovah's Witnesses were banned in that year but approximately half of its membership continued their "preaching work" underground. Jehovah's Witnesses refused to say "Heil Hitler," refused to participate in the processions, refused to sing the national anthem and the Horst Wessel Lied, and above all refused military service, oath to the flag, and all activities connected with the military establishment. For this they were bitterly persecuted from the very beginning of the National Socialist regime. Approximately ten thousand Jehovah's Witnesses were incarcerated. This small Christian group attempted through large-scale leaflet campaigns in 1936 and 1937 to open the eyes of the German people to the criminal character of the Nazi state and thus defend their religious interests against the unjust regime. Their religious resistance resulted, however, in the deaths of 1,200 congregation members.

Japan, have you learned nothing from History? It is wrong to punish anyone for not believing in what you believe.

It not surprising that the court came down with this decision. Japan was allied with Nazi Germany. I guess some things never change.

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herefornowJUL. 15, 2011 - 08:38AM JST

their constitutionally guaranteed freedom of thought and conscience.

Guess it is "freedom of thought and conscience" as long as you think that Japan should honor its wartime past and the Emperor and have no conscience about that.

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CrickyJUL. 15, 2011 - 08:52AM JST

Ha Ha Ha, forcing a love fore your country. And they think that's going to work!!!

How about the country loving it's citizens, maybe too much, work them to death or poison them, ungrateful plebes.

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OkinawamikeJUL. 15, 2011 - 08:59AM JST

Constitution of Japan Freedom of thought and conscience (Article 19)

Freedom of thought (also called the freedom of conscience or ideas) is the freedom of an individual to hold or consider a fact, viewpoint, or thought, independent of others' viewpoints.

Herefornow has it right.

Guess it is "freedom of thought and conscience" as long as your not a teacher in Japan.

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sharpieJUL. 15, 2011 - 08:59AM JST

still way less patriotism here than in the good ole usa, where they have to say some stupid pledge. what is it? 'one nation under god'?!?! what is that?!? are you serious!

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Skeptical HippoJUL. 15, 2011 - 09:11AM JST

sharpie>

still way less patriotism here than in the good ole usa, where they have to say some stupid pledge. what is it? 'one nation under god'?!?! what is that?!? are you serious!

I think it sounds cool in the movies etc.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all.

The Bellamy salute (similar to the Nazi salute) wasn't sucha good idea, though...

Are teachers in the USA forced to pledge the oath of loyalty to the Star Spangled Banner at Sports Day too?

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sharpieJUL. 15, 2011 - 09:19AM JST

pledge of allegiance sounds so neo nazi skinhead

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herefornowJUL. 15, 2011 - 09:27AM JST

sharpie -- do you have the capability of debating an issue about Japan without trying to throw your political beliefs about other countries, usually the U.S., into the discussion? It is a waste of everyone's time and clearly indicates you are defensive about Japan -- so your only reaction is to try to trash other countries, usually based on nothing more than your own opinion. The issue is NOT what the U.S. constitution says, or what courts there do. The issue is how Japan, and its citiczens and courts, chose to define freedom of speech. Can you get that?

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WolfpackJUL. 15, 2011 - 09:34AM JST

Shouldn't a person who voluntarily works as an employee of the Japanese government act in a manner that is respectful to their employer while at work? No one has to be patriotic in Japan just as no one is forced to work for the government. If these teachers and clerks are so dead set against being respectful to their employer that they would take their case to the highest court in land, then perhaps they should heed their conscience and work for an employer that they can respect. Better yet they can start their own business and they can burn the Hinomaru all day long if they want.

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Skeptical HippoJUL. 15, 2011 - 09:35AM JST

It's realy short!

Kimigayo wa Chiyo ni yachiyo ni Sazare-ishi no Iwao to narite Koke no musu made

Meaning:

May your reign Continue for a thousand, eight thousand generations, Until the pebbles Grow into boulders Lush with moss

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Badge213JUL. 15, 2011 - 09:36AM JST

Just curious how does this apply to the foreign language teachers (ALTs) in schools?

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WolfpackJUL. 15, 2011 - 09:44AM JST

@Sharpie

still way less patriotism here than in the good ole usa, where they have to say some stupid pledge. what is it? 'one nation under god'?!?! what is that?!? are you serious!

pledge of allegiance sounds so neo nazi skinhead

There isn't anything wrong with the pledge of allegiance - in the US, Japan, or just about anywhere else in the free world. I am agnostic and the "one nation under god" line doesn't bother me a bit. Do people today think that being patriotic makes you a Nazi or something? In fact, it was that "one nation under god" that defeated the Nazi's and freed Europe from a brutal empire building madman. Are people really so intolerant of religion that they would not feel any sort of common unity with their fellow citizens over it? Not me... you are missing the forest by your fixation on a single tree.

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kurisupisuJUL. 15, 2011 - 09:45AM JST

Japan=Orwellian society

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jforceJUL. 15, 2011 - 09:54AM JST

Stand for the anthem. It's required in their job - plain and simple. No one cares what individuals think at work ... you should work. This has nothing to do with National Socialism. Why must we always think that when a law comes in it's there to control us? The paranoia for you truther, conspiracy -types is hilarious and you should probably learn to relax and stop thinking Japan is anything like Nazi Germany.

The good news is we know this stuff is silly, like having GOD in your country's Anthem, or pledge. We sure like to nitpick about it though. @Badge213: Me, too. Probably would go unnoticed like everything else.

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Skeptical HippoJUL. 15, 2011 - 10:01AM JST

Wolfpack>

they can burn the Hinomaru all day long if they want.

I was surprised to read that under the Japanese Criminal Code, any burning of a foreign nation's national flag is prohibited and punishable.

However, there has never been a law explicitly prohibiting the burning of the Japanese flag. Absent of such a law, this kind of desecration is implicitly protected by Article 21 (Freedom of speech) of the Constitution.

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Hide SuzukiJUL. 15, 2011 - 10:02AM JST

Some of you are totally exaggerating this article. This is only applicable to public school teachers although the article doesn't state it. If you don't like what your emplyer's policy, they can always go to private school to teach.
This is just like American court system, even if you are athesist, you must say something like i swear to tell nothing but truth under god, blah blah.

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Skeptical HippoJUL. 15, 2011 - 10:13AM JST

This is just like American court system, even if you are athesist, **you must **say something like i swear to tell nothing but truth under god, blah blah.

Not true.

In US courts a witness needs only swear (or affirm) to tell the truth under penalty of perjury. If some courts in some state uses a Bible or other book of religious teachings sacred to a party, he may accept or decline, according to his conscience or the tenets of their religion or beliefs.

In California for example, the witness may make an oath, or an affirmation or a declaration

"Every witness before testifying shall take an oath or make an affirmation or declaration in the form provided by law, except that a child under the age of 10 or a dependent person with a substantial cognitive impairment, in the court's discretion, may be required only to promise to tell the truth." (California Evidence Code Section 710.)

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tokyokawasakiJUL. 15, 2011 - 10:14AM JST

hide - no you're wrong. Fellow atheists do not have to swear referencing any mythical figures in a court.

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tokyokawasakiJUL. 15, 2011 - 10:16AM JST

Japan - the land where you are alleged to have freedom until you try to exercise them. On a principle level, I feel sorry for the teachers.

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NetNinjaJUL. 15, 2011 - 10:16AM JST

@jforce

A company is not above the law of the land. That's the problem. You set a precedent here that companies can punish their workers for as we both agree to be a trifle thing, then as a result, you open the flood gates for companies to abuse their workers. Companies will take this and run with it resulting in brazen infractions of labor law.

You can't see the picture and if you refuse to accept the possible domino effect then you are blatantly ignoring the laws of cause and effect. All rocks thrown in the pond create ripples no matter their size.

These are not military positions. They are civilians and no contract of employment can supercede a bill of human rights.

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Skeptical HippoJUL. 15, 2011 - 10:21AM JST

tokyokawasaki>

hide - no you're wrong. Fellow atheists do not have to swear referencing any mythical figures in a court.

Also, the Bible is not used to swear oaths in US courts anymore - hasn't been for many many years. Only in the movies..

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tkoind2JUL. 15, 2011 - 10:31AM JST

Nationalism is alive and well in Japan today. Very sad. Patriotism is an archaic concept for a world so integrated that the fall of one can mean the fall of all.

Put away your swaths of colorful fabric, your silly nationalistic songs, your empty demonstrations of devotion to flag and country and join the 21st century.

We live in one interconnected world, interdependent economically, politically, socially, environmentally and culturally.

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gogogoJUL. 15, 2011 - 10:33AM JST

Fear the government

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kaminarioyajiJUL. 15, 2011 - 10:38AM JST

Godwin's law invoked by the 6th post; that's pretty impressive.

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Elbuda MexicanoJUL. 15, 2011 - 10:40AM JST

Hey I had the same BS back in the USA! I got in trouble with the principal of our grammar school for telling the guy I did not agree with* the one nation under god stuff, when I am a BUDDHIST! I do not even believe in a one god crap!

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Skeptical HippoJUL. 15, 2011 - 10:42AM JST

Interesting.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

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Skeptical HippoJUL. 15, 2011 - 10:47AM JST

So, what happened? Were you suspended, fined, made to stand in the corner?

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Elbuda MexicanoJUL. 15, 2011 - 10:55AM JST

I had a long, long discussion with the principal, told him I chant Nam Myoho Renge Kyo for world peace, he said that was cool but to move my lips and to put my hand over my chest and smile at the USA flag etc..so I did while chanting nam myoho renge kyo for the peace and happiness of not only all of the kids, all of California and not all of the USA but for all of our world, and he was happy, I was happy, one big happy school. Thanks Skeptical Hippo

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GodanJUL. 15, 2011 - 10:56AM JST

Schools, in particular public ones, are there to instill children with a national identity. The teaching of math, science, etc... is secondary to this goal. If the teachers at public schools are not participating in the creation of this identity, then they aren't doing their job and they should never have become a teacher at a public school in the first place. Would be like enlisting in the army and then refusing to go to war. You aren't gonna go unpunished for this kind of disobedience.

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paulinusaJUL. 15, 2011 - 11:00AM JST

Most courts in the industrialized countries rule in a natiionalist way from time to time. But Japan's Supreme Court consistantly favors nationalist sentiment, rarely upsetting the status quo. It's just to be expected.

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herefornowJUL. 15, 2011 - 11:07AM JST

Schools, in particular public ones, are there to instill children with a national identity. The teaching of math, science, etc... is secondary to this goal.

Godan -- are you serious? Plesae explain how Japan will be competitive in the 21st century if schools focus first on instilling "national identity" into the children and leave such unimportant things as math and science to secondary status. And how exactly do you measure "national identity"? And does that mean private school kids are exempt from this need for forced "national identity"?

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BurakuminDesJUL. 15, 2011 - 11:10AM JST

Next thing, they will all be forced to goose-step and salute the thing every morning too!

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Skeptical HippoJUL. 15, 2011 - 11:10AM JST

LOL

Soka Gakkai should also learn to separate things, don't you agree?

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Dennis BauerJUL. 15, 2011 - 11:24AM JST

Japan going retro 70 years?

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ReformedBasherJUL. 15, 2011 - 11:24AM JST

What is the punishment?

With regards to the folk going on about Nazis, are the teachers being relocated to camps for extermination?

No? Then don't make such blatantly stupid comparisons. You weren't there and I suspect you have never lived in a really bad place where people who don't like you try real hard to kill you.

I'm not in favour of enforcing the rule, and I fully understand some people finding it offensive. But I think teachers should obey the rules just like the kids they teach. Otherwise they are a bad example. They can voice their own personal opinions in the staff room or write a letter to the ministry, but don't confuse kids by telling them they should be model citizens then rebel against authority in front of them.

As another poster mentioned, they can quit and work at a private school, or even start their own.

I remember marching to the classroom with martial music being played at full volume from the parade ground every morning at elementary school. We kids thought it was hilarious. I'm sure most kids in Japan don't care one way or another and also have the same rights as the teachers to decide by themselves when they get old enough.

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GodanJUL. 15, 2011 - 11:27AM JST

It is quite simple, Herefornow. A great deal of who we are is due to the environment we are exposed to as we grow up. Where will children spend a large chunk of their formative years? School, of course. An undercurrent of all curriculum is to produce citizens of that country. To be a citizen of a country is to be part of who one is, no? Ministries of Education around the world, and by extension their employees, i.e. teachers, are naturally understood to be raising the next generation of any countries citizenry. I am not saying that the teaching of math or science should be secondary, but in many ways it is. As for measuring national identity, not sure what that has to do with my post. Lastly, private schools often follow the same curricular goal(s). But they don't have to - at least in America, for example. Thus parents have a chance to opt out of "The System". BTW, I always attended private schools, but we still said the Pledge of Allegiance every day. Guess my parents thought it was OK.

PS I don't necessarily agree with the my original post, I just think this is the way it is. In a perfect world, I would surely prefer to agree with the sentiments by Tkoind2-sensei:

Put away your swaths of colorful fabric, your silly nationalistic songs, your empty demonstrations of devotion to flag and country and join the 21st century.

We live in one interconnected world, interdependent economically, politically, socially, environmentally and culturally.

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fdsJUL. 15, 2011 - 11:44AM JST

its a job requirement. if they don't like it, they should go work for a private school where they aren't required to stand and sing, if they are competent enough...

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Badge213JUL. 15, 2011 - 11:49AM JST

Reminds me when I was a student back in the US, we had foreign exchange students from time to time, we had one from Japan in my class. They had to stand each morning for the pledge, not sure how they can pledge an allegiance to the United States. On a side note on the pledge, once you make one, I 'm not sure why we had to do it every single day.

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NetNinjaJUL. 15, 2011 - 12:07PM JST

kaminarioyajiJul. 15, 2011 - 10:38AM JST

Godwin's law invoked by the 6th post; that's pretty impressive.

Here, let me help you out. Your post was so short, you forgot a few things. How convenient for you.

Godwin's law itself can be abused, as a distraction, diversion or even censorship, that fallaciously miscasts an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate. A 2005 Reason magazine article argued that Godwin's law is often misused to ridicule even valid comparisons.[9] Similar criticisms of the "law" (or "at least the distorted version which purports to prohibit all comparisons to German crimes") have been made by Glenn Greenwald.[10]

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japanjsJUL. 15, 2011 - 12:07PM JST

In USA, the purpose of public schools is to produce successful citizens (at the founding)...part of this is a pledge...But, as in Japan-it is just polite and respectful to stand-even if you don't sing an anthem or say a pledge.(in my state, it is required to deliver the Pledge of Allegiance each day, I just tell the students to stand out of respect, but they don't need to say anything or put there hand on their heart if they don't believe in that...state law doesn't require that.)

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sharpieJUL. 15, 2011 - 12:33PM JST

herefornow, well when you have so many j-bashers on here, you tend to get a little defensive. just as defensive as you are for your land of bliss country, the us. and incidentally, how long exactly is 'fornow'? for as long as you can bear it. do us all a favour and goforgood.

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toopoolJUL. 15, 2011 - 12:40PM JST

@Wolfpack So if your employer institutes a policy that you have to sing the Japanese national anthem every morning and stand for the flag raising, you would blindly and respectfully do this with no feelings of apprehension?

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papasmurfinjapanJUL. 15, 2011 - 12:56PM JST

Honestly I don't know if I'd want my child to be taught by a teacher who had no respect for the country he/she was employed by. I think if you are a teacher, it should be your duty to stand for the flag as a sign of respect. If you don't respect your country, you shouldn't be working for it!

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chewitupJUL. 15, 2011 - 01:04PM JST

Honestly I don't know if I'd want my child to be taught by a teacher who had no respect for the country he/she was employed by.

You confuse respect for country with respect for symbols, songs and pieces of cloth. Probably, you also confuse government with country. I respect Japan. I respect neither her government nor its symbols.

What a teacher who won't stand nor sing does is get students to think, so I hope my child will have such a teacher. I don't want my child to grow up in a school not only full of sheep, but white ones only. That is the road to becoming a lemming. And that is a mistake Japan has made in the past. Nobody likes dissent to what they think is right. But its absolutely necessary to have dissent to avoid become a pompous mindless idiot.

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chewitupJUL. 15, 2011 - 01:12PM JST

its a job requirement. if they don't like it, they should go work for a private school where they aren't required to stand and sing, if they are competent enough...

That would be irresponsible for starters. As teachers, they should feel their primary duty is to the children, not to authoritarian politicians trying to brainwash them.

Second, its really easy to sit on your hinny and suggest people change jobs like they change shirts. Its not that easy and many of these teachers have family to support.

Its a job requirement. Its the most ridiculous and at the same time most offensive job requirement I have ever heard of.

I suspect many of these politicians know they will not garner love for Japan through this and it is not their goal. Their goal is to make people afraid to express dissent, so they can be pig lords who can cow people into doing what they want.

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FireyReiJUL. 15, 2011 - 01:26PM JST

NetNinja,

Let socialism rear it's ugly head again.

I think you are confusing Socialism with Totalitarianism.

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Patrick SmashJUL. 15, 2011 - 01:31PM JST

Can they sing badly, too loudly, out of key, dancing about playing an air guitar or with imaginary microphone? That wouldn't be illegal would it?

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OsakadazJUL. 15, 2011 - 01:56PM JST

My thinking is that is the Japanese nation demands respect from its citizens then it should earn it.

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papasmurfinjapanJUL. 15, 2011 - 02:04PM JST

I respect neither her government nor its symbols

My point is, these people chose to work for a government they don't respect. If they don't like their employer, then they should find another job. Simple as that. It has nothing to do with socialism, imperialism, ultra-nationalism or even for that matter, patriotism.

Would you be happy if your kid's teacher in your own country refused to stand for your national anthem?

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Stranger_in_a_Strange_LandJUL. 15, 2011 - 02:05PM JST

I had a similar experience when I was in the Navy. I objected to the squadron chaplain doing a nightly christian prayer over the ship's loudspeaker system. The guy actually met with me and listened to my concerns, but in the end he said it was basically non-denominational (definitely christian though) and he thought it did my good than harm.

My appeals to a more thorough separation of church and state went unheeded.

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Stranger_in_a_Strange_LandJUL. 15, 2011 - 02:08PM JST

If they don't like their employer, then they should find another job.

The gov. is supposedly just a proxy for 'the people', so they people, teachers included, can try to change it if they want to.

You sound a bit like those 'murcans that always say, "If you don't like it, then move to another country.'

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papasmurfinjapanJUL. 15, 2011 - 02:11PM JST

My appeals to a more thorough separation of church and state went unheeded.

But in this case we are talking about a separation of state from state. That is why I find it curious that so many people here are suggesting the rule to stand is ridiculous. They are obviously looking at the topic with their gaijin goggles on, and would be extremely surprised if they supported this same action if it took place in their own country.

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herefornowJUL. 15, 2011 - 02:13PM JST

My point is, these people chose to work for a government they don't respect. If they don't like their employer, then they should find another job. Simple as that. It has nothing to do with socialism, imperialism, ultra-nationalism or even for that matter, patriotism.

papa -- nonsense. It has everything to do with "socialism, imperialism, ultra-nationalism or...patriotism". If there is any "employer" that defends human rights and protects the right of freedom of thought and conscience, it should be public boards of education/local governments. So, taking a job with them should not require someone to give up these freedoms. This is clearly a political agenda and has no place in education.

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NetNinjaJUL. 15, 2011 - 02:26PM JST

@papasmurfinjapan

Would you be happy if your kid's teacher in your own country refused to stand for your national anthem?>

This is an institution of education we are talking about. With that said, let me take your question and twist it around to make more related to the venue.

Would you be happy if your kid's teacher in your country REFUSED to teach your kid cause his political or religious views differed from that of his homeroom teacher?

The answer is NO, you wouldn't. Futhermore, the child can not be refused an education. So what is this decision based on? The Bill of Rights which is for everyone, not a select few. In the Bill of Rights there are no stipulations that say you have these rights depending on your job.

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papasmurfinjapanJUL. 15, 2011 - 02:36PM JST

If there is any "employer" that defends human rights and protects the right of freedom of thought and conscience, it should be public boards of education/local governments

I agree with this principle, but I respectfully disagree that requiring teachers to stand for the raising of the flag is a violation of "human rights". I suppose you could construe it as a violation of "the right of freedom of thought", but these are teachers for crying out loud. It is their job to teach the curriculum set by the government. They shouldn't be allowed the "right of freedom" to unilaterally pick and choose what they want to teach and what rules they want to follow. Can you imagine what the country would become if every teacher was free to do whatever he/she liked in the name of "freedom of thought"? The government has set the curriculum for schools, and teachers are obliged to follow it. Freedom of thought has nothing to do with it, nor should it.

So, taking a job with them should not require someone to give up these freedoms

A teacher is a role-model and example to children, and any objections he/she has with the system should be made privately. By not standing for the flag or singing the national anthem in front of your students, you are forcing your dissenting views on children, and that is, in my opinion, totally unacceptable.

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Stranger_in_a_Strange_LandJUL. 15, 2011 - 02:40PM JST

This is clearly a political agenda and has no place in education.

While I do strongly believe that the quality of education would be much higher without forced singing of the national anthem, the obvious counterpoint to your objection that it "has no place in education" is that it does. Japanese people have to chosen to include patriotic indoctrination as a part of their childrens' education. I may not agree with it, but it's their right to set up their education system however they think is best.

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ReformedBasherJUL. 15, 2011 - 02:41PM JST

To be honest, I can understand disgruntled teachers thinking but don't approve their actions. Current government / emperor aside, there is a LOT of history and culture that Japanese should be proud of. I approve of teaching kids respect and love for their country as long as it is not rammed down their throats like it was before/during WW2.

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Stranger_in_a_Strange_LandJUL. 15, 2011 - 02:47PM JST

Can you imagine what the country would become if every teacher was free to do whatever he/she liked in the name of "freedom of thought"?

IT WOULD BE CHAOS!!!

No, actually, the quality of education would probably go up, although the uniformity (and therefore the WA) would suffer.

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papasmurfinjapanJUL. 15, 2011 - 02:49PM JST

No, actually, the quality of education would probably go up

Well, we can both agree on that ^o^

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Skeptical HippoJUL. 15, 2011 - 02:54PM JST

international schools such as KIST in Tokyo employ Japanse teachers and Japanese staff as well as enroll Japanese students. During their entrance ceremony, graduation ceremony and Sports Festival there is no sight of the Hinomaru (Japanese flag) or sound of the Kimigayo (national anthem). Quite pleased...

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sillygirlJUL. 15, 2011 - 03:00PM JST

no one in the good ole USA - other than military - is required to pledge allegiance to the ameican flag - it is only common courtesy to stand. no one should be forced to pledge, sing or think otherwise. but good manners should prevail and people should stand for whatever pomp and circumstance. it in no way indicates that you proscribe to whatever is being pomped and circumstanced.

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Stranger_in_a_Strange_LandJUL. 15, 2011 - 03:02PM JST

no one in the good ole USA - other than military - is required to pledge allegiance to the ameican flag -

When did that stop? I can clearly remember having to do that every morning in grade school in the 70s.

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sillygirlJUL. 15, 2011 - 03:17PM JST

in the 50

s actually due to a suit
brought on by Jehovah

s Witnesses - but few really know that and many lawsuits by parents of students, letters of apology to students and compensation has been paid to students who have been berated by teachers in a variety of states. it is not, i repeat, not required. again, it is just plain good manners to stand.

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wytroxJUL. 15, 2011 - 04:46PM JST

Out of respect for the country, I would stand during the National Anthem, even if I am not a Japanese. I would do the same for any country if I am a guest, more so if it were my own. As citizens and public servants, is it too much to ask?

When I was in school, we had flag ceremony twice each day. Raising it in the morning and lowering it in the afternoon. It was not even a military school but a private school for girls. We were not forced to, even children as young as 7 or 8 would stop and stand erect to face the flag when the national anthem played.

I see the national team representing their country in the world cup and olympics and think teachers who refuse to stand and sing their own country's national anthem should be fired from their jobs and citizenship revoked.

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chewitupJUL. 15, 2011 - 04:50PM JST

Would you be happy if your kid's teacher in your own country refused to stand for your national anthem?

As if my previous posts did not answer that question! YES! What I would be displeased with is my neighbor's guaranteed over-reaction to it!

My point is, these people chose to work for a government they don't respect.

They did not choose to work for the government! They chose to work for the children! If all schools turned private tomorrow they would seek to retain their jobs, because they did not choose that job to be a tool of the government!

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chewitupJUL. 15, 2011 - 04:55PM JST

it is not, i repeat, not required. again, it is just plain good manners to stand.

Its an interesting point. Sitting seems to show disrespect. How does one stay neutral? One might think just standing would be a good way, but that shows more than neutrality. The absolute worst part of this is that they are REQUIRED to sing as well, and that sinks all hope of trying to display your neutrality. Now you clealy look supportive and become a brainwashing tool. Its completely wrong. Its on par with North Korea. The authorties are shaming Japan terribly.

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OsakadazJUL. 15, 2011 - 05:00PM JST

Well when I was a kid in Australia we had to sing two anthems.. God save the queen and Advance Australia fair. I was an English immigrant and found it amusing but I think most Aussies found it bemusing. That continued until 1984.

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sillygirlJUL. 15, 2011 - 05:13PM JST

chewitup - i agree wholeheartedly with the singing (even mouthing the words) but again, manners. after working in a japan public school i learned to just stand in silence as i probably would in any other country. where have manners gone in this world?!?!??!? respect for others?!?!?!?!? i originally posted this is so wrong in japan. but, if all stood for all countries` anthems there would be nothing identifying you as pro/con (unless you wanted to learn the words and sing). and to the other posters - a public school teacher (elementary and jhs mandatory education) in japan IS a government job unlike the states. any other country want to chime in?

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Skeptical HippoJUL. 15, 2011 - 05:21PM JST

Are Japanese soccer/football players and other athletes, who (represent Japan and) refuse to stand for the hoisting of the Hinomaru national flag and sing the Kimigayo national anthem at international sporting events, also punished?

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sillygirlJUL. 15, 2011 - 05:39PM JST

skeptical hippo - the "law" discussed is about public school teachers being forced. i imagine that sportsmen/women are just a little bit different when it comes to that plus, i believe the law doesn`t apply to them.

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Skeptical HippoJUL. 15, 2011 - 05:47PM JST

I was thinking the same thing... If it were all about the law though then all schools including those run privately would need to obey this law. Actually it's about the constitution. Bit different.... Anyway, now I'm thinking those althletes represent their country at international sport events such as the World Cup and the Olymics. Are they not being forced into standing up, crossing their heart (non-Japanese) and sing the national anthem? Really? I've heard of some having been fined. Not sure about Japan. Just wondering, you know...

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wytroxJUL. 15, 2011 - 05:51PM JST

sillygirl- I agree. As a mother of 4 Japanese citizens I want to instill in them pride in their heritage, from both their parents. I stand (but dont sing ) during the hoisting of the flag, out of respect for my children's home country and expect them to do the same for mine. It has nothing to do with politics, freedom of thought, or patriotism.

I would expect the teachers to have some manners especially during school functions.

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sillygirlJUL. 15, 2011 - 06:00PM JST

wytrox - nicely put. i am the mother of one with the same feelings.

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GodanJUL. 15, 2011 - 06:06PM JST

As a father of two Japanese citizens, I agree with the sentiment that they be raised to have pride in their heritage(s), too. Whether it is my wife's country or mine, I think that there is much to be proud of and standing and singing the respective anthem is a sign of respect. Glad to see I am not the only one, Wytrox and Sillygirl. :^)

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Patrick SmashJUL. 15, 2011 - 06:38PM JST

As a Brit I don't understand why they bother hoisting flags and singing silly songs at them to start with. Yes, America and North Korea do it but do what. I never had to sing God Save The Queen at school and nor did any of my teachers. Forcing this issue makes people less patriotic and it is better to ignore the few that don't want to sing. If the government cares so much, make standing for the anthem a condition for new employees and ignore this tiny minority until they all retire. Or just give up hoisting flags and singing silly songs at pointless ceremonies.

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chewitupJUL. 15, 2011 - 06:59PM JST

where have manners gone in this world?!?!??!? respect for others?!?!?!?!?

I would say there is little more rude or disrespectful than to require YOUR manners and ideas of respect as rule of law!

there would be nothing identifying you

I neither need nor want to be identified, and I do not want anyone assuming my positions and politics because I stood up and sang a damned song under duress.

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sillygirlJUL. 15, 2011 - 07:04PM JST

chewitup - what kinda mama raised you? i am not talking about MY manners. i am talking about human decency

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chewitupJUL. 15, 2011 - 07:05PM JST

As a mother of 4 Japanese citizens I want to instill in them pride in their heritage,

Making them stand and sing a song and having them watch others forced to do the same SHOULD accomplish exactly the opposite IF any of you have a brain that works.

But I am sure lots of Nazis also thought they were true patriots for the exact same tactic.

Patriotism is far better when its felt for REASONS, you know something other than brainwashing with rythyms and routine. When you have reasons, the cheerleaders and RA RA RA are great. But when the cheerleaders and the RA RA RA become your reasons you may as well go join Dear Leader's squad.

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Skeptical HippoJUL. 15, 2011 - 07:51PM JST

The Tokyo Metropolitan Government Board of Education under the wings of the Ministry of Education is the board of education in Tokyo, Japan. The board manages the individual school systems within the metropolis. The board also directly manages all of the public high schools in Tokyo.

This board requires the use of both the anthem and flag at events under their jurisdiction. The order requires school teachers to respect both symbols or risk losing their jobs. Some have protested that such rules violate the Constitution of Japan, but the Board has argued that since schools are government agencies, their employees have an obligation to teach their students how to be good Japanese citizens.

QUESTION: When they say "schools are government agencies" do they mean public schools (state owned -toritsu, kuritsu) or private schools (shiritsu) as well?

The weirdest thing (contradiction) I still cannot get my head around is that there is no law explicitly prohibiting the burning of the Japanese flag and that teachers are implicitly protected by Article 21 (Freedom of speech) of the Constitution if they would wish to do so, BUT at the same time they are told to respect the Hinomaru.

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hatsoffJUL. 15, 2011 - 08:31PM JST

I used to be a member of the shocked and appalled brigade too, until I actually attended one of these school ceremonies (my son's elementary school entrance ceremony), and I thought..."Is that it? Is this what everyone is getting hot under the collar about?"

From that point on I thought it was no big deal. The teachers who are refusing to stand and sing are making a big fuss about nothing. Militaristic? Don't make me laugh. Japan forcing patriotism on its people? Not really. Just trying to have an orderly ceremony. What next - students refusing to take part in sports days because they believe competition is unfair to the losers?

As for the comparisons with Nazi Germany, go live in Russia or parts of the old East Germany for a close up on the resurgence of the jackboots and national socialism, then come back and claim with a straight face that Japan is giving the green light to the same.

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hatsoffJUL. 15, 2011 - 08:33PM JST

One more quick comparison, thousands in Britain regularly sing "GOD save the Queen" when they've never been to a church in their lives. It's just an anthem, right? Same for Japan.

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papasmurfinjapanJUL. 15, 2011 - 08:37PM JST

QUESTION: When they say "schools are government agencies" do they mean public schools (state owned - toritsu, kuritsu) or private schools (shiritsu) as well?

As far as I know there is no real clear cut answer to this. Theoretically private schools are beyond the jurisdiction of the Board of Education, but most of them more or less willingly follow the guidelines, because failure to do so could see their schools unaccredited and would also make them ineligible for public funding. Whether playing the anthem and hoisting the flag is a prerequisite to accreditation, I do not know.

Personally I don't think Article 21 of the constitution applies in this case. If they refuse to stand for the raising of the flag on their own personal time, that is freedom of speech. If they refuse to do it during work hours at their own workplace of choice, then I think that is inappropriate. Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can do whatever you like, whenever you like, without any consequences. When you are at work, you follow the rules your employer has set. If you don't like the rules, you quit. That's how it works in most businesses, why should a school be any different?

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sojherdeJUL. 15, 2011 - 09:16PM JST

Forcing teachers against their conviction to sing the national anthem will not make children proud on their country, rather the opposite. When they learn about the more tolerant atmosphere in other countries they will feel ashamed. And as long as the politicians force their will on the people and rather seek their profit instead of work together to help the needy, the mistrust between the normal citizens will remain. Forcing people to sing the KImigayo against their will does not solve this conflict but rather sharpens it.

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OsakadazJUL. 15, 2011 - 09:46PM JST

One thing you do notice (as an aside) is that often the principal bows to the place where the Emperor's photo would have been (talking Hirohito here,not the current emperor)..now in Australia, God save the queen became the Royal anthem and AAF became the national anthem. Kimigayo is reportedly an ode to the Emperor so maybe Japan ought to split the difference and make it a Royal anthem and choose something more accessible as the national anthem? Banzai by the Ulfuls would get everyone rocking and in a good mood.

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kaminarioyajiJUL. 15, 2011 - 10:22PM JST

@Netninja

Godwin's law invoked by the 6th post; that's pretty impressive.

Here, let me help you out. Your post was so short, you forgot a few things. How convenient for you.

You're right, how silly of me; your comparisons with the third reich were spot on. What was I thinking with my non-hysterical, rational stance that in fact, Japan, even with its many flaws is nowhere near what you allude to?

I see your post is also too short, you failed to copy and paste the rest of that article (a whole lotta things) - how convenient for you!

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nigelboyJUL. 16, 2011 - 12:41AM JST

This is clearly a political agenda and has no place in education.

Good point herefornow. That's exactly what these teachers are being criticized for which is expressing their own political views during work hours.

*****

That's exactly what these teachers are being criticized for which is expressing their own political views during work hours.>

well, maybe not "exactly". they are refusing to affirm a politically charged practice, which is an infringement on their freedom of conscience in terms of a "negative liberty", i.e., the freedom from having a religion imposed on you. they are refusing to participate in a public ritual which is associated with a specific historical social model (theocratic) that an overwhelming majority of modern Japanese people reject, while some politicians and people aspiring to create a stratified society with themselves as the ruling class see as a model that serves their agenda.

although the poem kimigayo was not written in a context in the 8th or 9th century that we could meaningfully call theocratic, it was employed by militarist attempting to use religion as a tool of social control during the rise of "State Shinto" fascism starting in the late 19th century, and culminating with japan's defeat in WWII.

JUL. 16, 2011 - 01:12AM JST

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steve@CPFCJUL. 16, 2011 - 01:34AM JST

nigelboy; I have stopped posting links as i am continually getting bashed for them for some reason. Some of the teachers take this stand because they think it is wrong to show respect that they believe does not or has not earned it according to their experiences,

There are of course "militants" as we call then in the UK who are against anything that they feel is forced upon them by a "right wing" government, I have family friend who teaches at a school in Osaka who sais most will go alongg wity it as they don't want hassle but some older teachers may feel that opposing the ruling may get them made redundant and possibly have financial benefits from losing their jobs.

As is often the case in Japanese society most don't want to rock the boat and that includes the school boards. It is easier to pay off a troublesome teacher near the end of their career rather than wanting any disruption during school events. Regardless of whether the rulings are right or wrong some will use to further their own ends and causes.

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nigelboyJUL. 16, 2011 - 01:36AM JST

*****.

They, as in Nikkyoso (Techers Union) are against the national anthem of Kimigayo and had proposed in the past, a new anthem to be incoporated. Hence, they are not against participating in a public ritual per se (singing/standing during a national anthem. In those aspects, by singling out Kimigayo makes their conducts "expressing their own political views during work hours".

*****

nigelboy

i think that it represents a simple exercise of their constitutional right to freedom of conscience.

the constitution is supposed to prevent an administration/government from forcing citizens to act in a manner counter to their conscience, insofar as their conscience is in accord with the constitution. that is to say, democracy, human rights, civil liberties, etc. conscience does not refer to religious or political beliefs per se.

so i do not see their refusal to stand and sing as a political statement in the proactive sense, but as a personal defense maneuver to act in good conscience and maintain a degree of integrity in a compromised society.

JUL. 16, 2011 - 01:48AM JST

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Marion Wm SteeleJUL. 16, 2011 - 02:05AM JST

94 comments above - all saying relatively the same thing! Much ado about very little, as acceptance must be earned.

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herefornowJUL. 16, 2011 - 04:37AM JST

It is their job to teach the curriculum set by the government. They shouldn't be allowed the "right of freedom" to unilaterally pick and choose what they want to teach

papa -- agree. But how does standing for a flag at a school ceremony qualify as curriculum? Sorry, but this is not refusal to teach Japanese history, which I would agree is a fireable offense. This is refusing to identify themselves with the politics/pseudo-religious connotations of the anthem. Totally different.

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sillygirlJUL. 16, 2011 - 05:29AM JST

you know SCHOOL LUNCH is part of the cirriculum?!?!?!?!?

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Skeptical HippoJUL. 16, 2011 - 08:46AM JST

Just had A Few Good Men flashback

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papasmurfinjapanJUL. 16, 2011 - 09:28AM JST

But how does standing for a flag at a school ceremony qualify as curriculum?

The patriotic component of the Japanese curriculum (forcing teachers to stand and sing) was passed into law by the Abe administration in 2004. Whether I agree with it or not is beside the point (personally I don't), but the law is the law. If you disagree with the law, you are free to object against it, but not free to disobey it, which is what the teachers are doing.

Having an objection to a law does not give you the right to disobey it. Like I said in an earlier post, we can't pick and choose what rules/laws/curriculum/work policies - you name it - we want to obey and disregard the rest because we don't agree with them. If these teachers have a genuine concern, they should take their grievance to the courts, but until a ruling is made that overturns the law, they are obliged to follow it. That is how society works.

I personally don't agree with how the Japanese government spends my taxes - does that give me the right to stop paying tax in protest and expect no repercussions?

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BreitbartVictoriousJUL. 16, 2011 - 10:05AM JST

patricksmash: "As a Brit I don't understand why they bother hoisting flags and singing silly songs at them to start with. Yes, America and North Korea do it but do what. "

What a ridiculous attempt at trying to equate Stalinist, isolationist, supremacist North Korea with the free,pluralistic and democratic US of A, a country which, by the way, has nothing to do with this issue of how the Japanese gov't decides to inculcate a little patriotism in its schools.

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lucabrasiJUL. 16, 2011 - 10:34AM JST

What a ridiculous attempt at trying to equate Stalinist, isolationist, supremacist North Korea with the free,pluralistic and democratic US of A

I don't see any attempt to "equate" anything with anything. What is true, however is that there is a clearly identifiable group of nations with certain traits in common: a love of flags and ceremony, an unhealthy interest in things military, a belief in the country's superiority over all other countries and a fondness for the death penalty. And America is in that group, along with Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and North Korea etc. And there exist people in this country who'd like to see Japan go the same way.

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Skeptical HippoJUL. 16, 2011 - 11:03AM JST

Is there something like the Godwin's_law but for bringing up the USA? LOL

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chewitupJUL. 16, 2011 - 11:16AM JST

Good point herefornow. That's exactly what these teachers are being criticized for which is expressing their own political views during work hours.

Man said "political agenda", not expressing political views. Nobody has a problem with expressing political views in school. It is a place to learn. The problem is with indoctrination and forcing people to bow to another's political will. Talk and expression are all good. Making people stand and sing under threat of losing their job is most DEFINITELY not.

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chewitupJUL. 16, 2011 - 11:23AM JST

chewitup - what kinda mama raised you? i am not talking about MY manners. i am talking about human decency

Human decency is giving opening a door for someone with with no free hands.

Groveling to symbols is submission. Forcing people to grovel to symbols is the act of a sadist who is sick in the head.

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papasmurfinjapanJUL. 16, 2011 - 12:00PM JST

Making people stand and sing under threat of losing their job is most DEFINITELY not

They are not under threat of losing their job. Their punishment is a 2 hour re-education course and essay.

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PT24881JUL. 16, 2011 - 02:51PM JST

Viva democracy !

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Skeptical HippoJUL. 16, 2011 - 03:56PM JST

They are not under threat of losing their job.

Yes, they are.

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papasmurfinjapanJUL. 16, 2011 - 05:04PM JST

Skeptical Hippo

I'm sorry, you are right, I'm wrong on that one.

From my limited knowledge of the subject, disobey the rule once or twice and you will be warned. More than that and perhaps "punished" through re-education or docked pay, and in some cases suspension. However teachers who have a history of repeated dissension may be warned that any further disregard of the rules will result in termination of their contract. So yes, there is a threat, but only after the teachers have been sufficiently warned that with there actions there will be consequences.

I don't think it is fair to limit this the the kimigayo issue however. If a teacher consistently disobeys school policy (no matter what that policy is), I think they would receive the same treatment. It is not as though these people are being singled out. They know exactly what they are getting into when they choose to disobey the rules.

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Skeptical HippoJUL. 16, 2011 - 05:19PM JST

Tell that to Katsuhisa Fujita, a first time offender:

In March 2004, Fujita urged the parents of students attending a graduation ceremony at Itabashi Senior High School to remain seated while the Kimigayo was played. His action delayed the start of the event by about two minutes because the school principal asked him to leave.

Full article here: http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/national/archive/news/2011/07/08/20110708p2g00m0dm003000c.html

More on Wiki too

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papasmurfinjapanJUL. 16, 2011 - 06:17PM JST

Tell that to Katsuhisa Fujita, a first time offender

Um, perhaps I'm missing something here, but where does it say he was fired? It says he was fined 200,000yen.

Furthermore, refusing to stand is one thing, "urging the parents of students not to stand" is a completely different matter altogether. I totally agree with the principal's decision and the court's ruling.

"The ruling, handed down by presiding Justice Ryuko Sakurai, said, "While the freedom of expression should be respected as a particularly important right, the Constitution does not guarantee it without limits, and limitations are acceptable to the extent that they are necessary and reasonable for public welfare."

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papasmurfinjapanJUL. 16, 2011 - 06:17PM JST

And by the way, if I was the principal, I probably would have fired him.

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papasmurfinjapanJUL. 16, 2011 - 06:35PM JST

Sorry me again..^o^ My above post was a bit unclear - my son was pulling my arm wanting to watch transformers on youtube...

The above case is about an old, presumably retired teacher returning as a guest of honor to a graduation ceremony. He proceeded to cause a scene, and the principal asked him to leave. He wasn't working at the school at the time, so certainly wasn't fired. He was fined by the courts for being a public nuisance. The fact that the cause was asking parents not to stand to kimiyago was incidental. He could have been telling them to stand up and sing Lady Gaga instead of the anthem - and the outcome would have been the same.

If he WAS a teacher at the time and did that at the school I was principal of, I'd definitely consider firing him.

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Skeptical HippoJUL. 16, 2011 - 07:47PM JST

Tell that to Katsuhisa Fujita, a first time offender.

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papasmurfinjapanJUL. 16, 2011 - 08:00PM JST

@ Skeptical Hippo

Tell that to the school, the courts and I'd wager the majority of the population. Also please re-read my post - Mr Fujita's case has nothing to do with the topic at hand. If you had actually read the article you posted, you should be able to see that.

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Skeptical HippoJUL. 16, 2011 - 08:05PM JST

If it has nothing to do with the topic at hand (nice ploy to get your silly posts deleted here) why then O'Wise One is his name and his conviction included in every single article on Wiki and other (full - not halfarsed JT articles) news sites on this topic?

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Skeptical HippoJUL. 16, 2011 - 08:12PM JST

Please also note that at the time of Fujita's sentence, 345 teachers had been punished for refusing to take part in anthem related events. Mr. Fujita's actions constituted a protest in direct relation to these ridiculous (and unconstitutional IMO) punishments which had already started way before his sentencing.

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Skeptical HippoJUL. 16, 2011 - 08:42PM JST

This ruling is typical of an era of increasing nationalism.

You all remember former Prime Minister Taro Aso? In 2001, as economics minister, he was quoted as saying he wanted to make Japan a country where "rich Jews" would like to live. In 2005 he praised Japan for having "one culture, one civilization, one language, and one ethnic group," and stated that it was the only such country in the world. Such statements seem to be in conflict with the fact Japan has various indigenous ethnic groups spread over its northern islands. At a lecture in Nagasaki Prefecture, Taro referred to a Japanese peace initiative on the Middle East, stating, "The Japanese were trusted because they had never been involved in exploitation there, or been involved in fights or fired machine guns. Japan is doing what the Americans can't do. It would probably be no good to have blue eyes and blond hair. Luckily, we Japanese have yellow faces."

Then there is of course also the governor of Tokyo.....

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hatsoffJUL. 16, 2011 - 10:34PM JST

If I was one of the parents at the ceremony I think I'd want him to leave too. Come on, let's not kid ourselves, these people are not having their human rights crushed under jackboots. They are militants. I'm reminded of Derek Hatton in the UK in the dark old days of militant within the Labour Party. How many here have actually attended these ceremonies, either as parents or teachers? And how many refused to stand?

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Stranger_in_a_Strange_LandJUL. 16, 2011 - 11:24PM JST

If you disagree with the law, you are free to object against it, but not free to disobey it,

I'm free to do anything I want.

*****JUL. 17, 2011 - 01:31AM JST

@hatsoff

let's remember that the flag and national anthem were not officially adopted until 1999, by a corrupt right wing administration with an agenda involving the use of symbols of authority to further perpetuate their grip on the reins of government.

civil disobedience is not militarism, and as a teacher with a well-informed understanding of modern Japanese history, his attempt to encourage parents to join his solitary resistance movement might be seen as an overly ambitious gesture, nut certainly not militaristic.

in fact, that is a deceptive mischaracterization of his actions. the militarists in "modern" japan are those who have persecuted citizens who were expressing their views or refusing to comply with dictates that were counter to their conscience with lese majesty laws and the like prior to their defeat in WWII.

it is a "criminal wealthy class" (Theodore Roosevelt) that seeks to implement theocracy in order to secure their position in a hypostacized social order among an populous that is unable to question authority without committing a sacrilegious act. in this case, not standing to sing an anthem in a democratic country that might facilitate the reversion of that democratic polity to a theocratic social model it held in its not-so-distant past.

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papasmurfinjapanJUL. 17, 2011 - 08:14AM JST

why then O'Wise One is his name and his conviction included in every single article on Wiki and other (full - not halfarsed JT articles) news sites on this topic?

You obviously have your own agenda here so I don't really see any point discussing it any further with you. I will just quickly point out why this old man's fight is different to what we are talking about (the teachers union's "argument that forcing teachers to stand and sing the anthem violated their constitutionally guaranteed freedom of thought and conscience"), in case you have forgotten.

Strike 1. He was not a teacher at the time.

Strike 2. He was a troublemaker encouraging the parents of students not to stand, not simply just refusing to stand by himself.

Strike 3: He was not punished by the school. He was asked to leave the ceremony because he was causing a disruption. He was punished by the legal system that found him guilty of being a public nuisance.

Tell me how an ex-teacher causing a public nuisance by telling parents of children at a graduation ceremony not to stand is the same as a teacher quietly refusing to stand is the same thing and I'll relinquish my title of O'Wise One to you.

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papasmurfinjapanJUL. 17, 2011 - 08:16AM JST

I agree, certainly not militaristic... but nevertheless, not appropriate, no?

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hatsoffJUL. 17, 2011 - 09:28AM JST

@***** - thanks for the considered answer. However, I said he was a militant, not militaristic. I agree he wasn't being militaristic.

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chewitupJUL. 17, 2011 - 09:33AM JST

these people are not having their human rights crushed under jackboots

Sounds to me like you are saying that their constitution rights don't really matter until it gets physical. Sounds to me like you would be okay with a little book burning too.

I don't think constitutional and human rights violations come in degrees of severity where you just ignore them if they are not bad enough.

I think his level of protest was appropriate to what he was protesting. If he did anything less, he would basically be doing nothing. And as mentioned, he did not start this. He REACTED to this. All that had to be done to prevent his reaction was to not force him to stand and sing. Don't blame the fire. Blame the arsonist.

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hatsoffJUL. 17, 2011 - 10:15AM JST

@chewitup - it may sound TO YOU that what I'm saying is their constitutional rights don't matter until it gets physical. And it may sound TO YOU that I'm okay with a little book burning too. But....

Anyway I'm not interested in a polarised debate that heads straight down the cul-de-sac to rattle around at the bottom. So you keep on making things up to fuel the intensity of your outrage if it makes you happy.

I don't think constitutional and human rights violations come in degrees of severity where you just ignore them if they are not bad enough.

And that's what people are debating here, isn't it? You obviously think it's bad enough already and others don't. I can't see a problem with having a different view about that. And if you can, then maybe it's you who should be doing the book burning.

As for my saying he was militant (not directed at you here), the Militant Tendency in the Labour Party was an extreme Left Wing organization that did nothing but disrupt the Labour Party and made them unelectable for more than a decade because they only operated in the interests of a very small minority, but had the power to disrupt many more.

Good Bad

Skeptical HippoJUL. 17, 2011 - 11:04AM JST

It is their (our) constitutional right to NOT respect/honor the national flag of Japan. Article 21 of the constitution (freedom of speech) protects that right. There is no law in place that would punish anyone for desecrationg the Hinomaru. This includes shredding, pissing on it or burning it. Yet, this man, these people, these teachers, who dishonored the national flag by not facing it and not singing (a questionalble song) toward it, got punished for doing so. Punished by a court of law that is obviously nationalistically biased. Reprimanded by the Board of Education under the wings of the Ministry of Education. Punished with whatever which if they wouldn't follow (as in obey) they would eventually be fired from their jobs. What do you call that?

Good Bad

Skeptical HippoJUL. 17, 2011 - 11:09AM JST

papasmurfinjapan>

You obviously have your own agenda here

As do you, little Smurf Man. As do you...

Good Bad

hatsoffJUL. 17, 2011 - 11:20AM JST

Again, how many have actually attended these ceremonies? As I said in an earlier post, I used to get hot under the collar about this issue, but when I actually went to a ceremony I saw....lots of ordinary people. No extremists on the Left or Right. For those who have attended these cermonies, either as teachers or parents, did you refuse to stand in accordance with your outraged morals?

Good Bad

Skeptical HippoJUL. 17, 2011 - 12:10PM JST

Sorry, can't say I have. All my children go to international school. My oldest entered Waseda University this year and his entrance ceremony got cancelled because of 11-3-11.

Good Bad

chewitupJUL. 17, 2011 - 12:15PM JST

And that's what people are debating here, isn't it? You obviously think it's bad enough already and others don't.

You could not be any more wrongheaded! Its not a point of its bad enough. Its a question of it being a violation of their rights, and it is. Only a fool would argue "bad enough" and I am not and never will argue on that basis. I am just pointing out the fact that you did.

Thiswhole thing is on the same level of firing Jewish and Muslim teachers because they refuse to eat the pork in the school lunches and it made some people "uncomfortable". Then say its their job to eat the pork and they were told to eat the pork but refused. They had their chance. They should work for a private school if they don't want to eat pork. But as I value the political dissent far more than any religious belief, the firing of teachers and the re-education classes are actually worse. I cannot even believe people can talk about re-education with a straight face! Face it, the last time any of used that term were talking about NK, the Soviets or the Nazis. And now people just say, oh, re-education? No big deal since its Japan doing it. Come on! First it was automatically abhorrent, and now its no big thing? Won't be long before a new word is invented so as to pretend its different, much like America had "internment camps" instead of concentration camps, and Japan had "comfort women" instead of sex slaves. What a crock of dung!

Good Bad

cleoJUL. 17, 2011 - 12:17PM JST

For those who have attended these cermonies, either as teachers or parents, did you refuse to stand in accordance with your outraged morals?

I've attended several, and was happy to stand (but not sing- don't know the words past the first line, anyway). But it was before they made this stupid rule and no one told me I had to stand or else.

Good Bad

chewitupJUL. 17, 2011 - 12:28PM JST

I've attended several, and was happy to stand (but not sing- don't know the words past the first line, anyway). But it was before they made this stupid rule and no one told me I had to stand or else.

Same here. I was happy to let it go until it became a "You vill OBEY ze order!" type issue.

Good Bad

Skeptical HippoJUL. 17, 2011 - 12:30PM JST

hatsoff>

how many have actually attended these ceremonies?

Why do you ask?

I know for certain it's cold on Antactica, yet I've never been there either...

Good Bad

wytroxJUL. 17, 2011 - 12:35PM JST

I have attended 4 Kindergarten, 4 grade school 4 JHS, 3HS, 1 College, 1 University Nyuugakushiki and enough graduation ceremonies as a parent and I have never once seen any disruption caused by a teacher, parent or outsider . (I noticed a couple of parents enter the auditorium after the Kimigayo, but nobody paid any attention to them, everyone presumed they were late...if they were in fact against the flag and anthem, then they were mature enough to respect the other attendees, and wait outside until it was over. ) I find the ceremonies to be very solemn and meaningful. Lots of crying especially JHS and HS graduations, not only the students and parents but also the teachers.
Its about sending off the students to the next stage in their education, and not to be used as a stage for proving a point. I think students will look back and think it was selfish and childish of their teacher to use "Their Graduation" as a protest against the Flag and anthem. It will certainly tarnish the memory of the occasion. If that is what the teachers intend to do, then they have no place in a school.

Bill to oblige teachers to respect anthem submitted to Osaka assembly

Thursday 26th May, 07:15 AM JST

OSAKA —

Osaka prefectural assembly members who belongs to a political group led by Gov Toru Hashimoto submitted a proposal for an ordinance that would oblige school teachers to stand up when the ‘‘Kimigayo’’ national anthem is sung at school ceremonies.

Since the political group named Osaka Ishin no Kai (Osaka Restoration Group) holds a majority of Osaka prefectural assembly seats, it is almost certain that the ordinance will be adopted.

‘‘Kimigayo,’’ which carries lines originally wishing for the eternal reign of the emperor, is often seen as a symbol of Japan’s past imperialism and militarism...

There have been many disputes over the anthem … some teachers arguing that demanding respect for the song infringes on their constitutional freedom of thought.

The move in Osaka, which is expected to result in the nation’s first such ordinance…

Teachers at public schools in Osaka will be subject to the envisioned ordinance, which does not provide punitive provisions for violations.

But Hashimoto has insisted that it would be reasonable to give a dishonorable discharge to teachers who kept rejecting orders from a school principal to stand up when the anthem was sung.

…

In March, the Tokyo High Court on Thursday annulled the disciplinary actions taken against nearly 170 plaintiffs that include teachers who refused to stand up at the hoisting of the Hinomaru national flag and sing the ‘‘Kimigayo’’ national anthem at school ceremonies in Tokyo.

….

Comments

NuckinFutz at 07:43 AM JST - 26th May

A "dishonorable discharge"? Are teachers a military force these days? Maybe it's time the teachers start working to get rid of the governor and stand up for thier freedoms!

tmarie at 08:13 AM JST - 26th May

Pathetic Hashimoto! Would you fire his sister is she refused to "respect" it? You can't force people to respect such things. Usually the best teachers who won't stand for it in my experience - they have a clue about what their country has done in the past!

nimbus at 08:33 AM JST - 26th May

This makes it looks like the Japanese government in power during WW2 is still in power today. Perhaps that's why Japan, unlike Germany, still has so many problems relating back to WW2 with its neighbors today.

TuxedoMichael at 08:49 AM JST - 26th May

Here in the U.S., we stand up when the "Star Spangled Banner" is played and cover our hearts with our right hand.

We even recite the Pledge of Allegiance at school.

we don't so out of force. It's because we love and honor our country and our freedoms!

Gurukun at 08:53 AM JST - 26th May

It's because we love and honor our country and our freedoms!

People of Japan do to. However, they dont love and honor the meaning underlying the Japanese Anthem.

Speed at 08:58 AM JST - 26th May

You would think the government would have more important things to think about. Making it a law to pretend to respect something won't ever result in people actually respecting it.

NetNinja at 09:09 AM JST - 26th May

@NuckinFutz - "A dishonrable discharge". I noticed that too. Seems like a cherry on top.

@nimbus - Did you ever think that Japan would change? Yes, that same government is still in power today. There is still a communist party. They just learned how to blend in. The Yakuza too. You'd recognize them quickly if they were still sporting the punch perms and macho man suits. Every gangster dreams of going legit. Even the Godfather had lawyers and politicians in the family.

Like zebras they confuse this society by blending in. Yes, they are pushing this old anthem cause it's a reminder that "Hey" we are still here and we're going to force it on you cause we just paused till we can be stronger than our enemy. Kimigayo not only represent the Emperor but when Japanese believed they were the Divine race.

Funny thing is, it's actually quite beautiful when you hear it. It has depth and it's tone reflects the long history of Japan.

The argument here is whether or not someone should be forced to stand and sing it.

Of course, this issue seems directly aimed at Japanese but what if a foreigner didn't stand up? What if I didn't sing it? We're not Japanese Nationals. I believe there's the argument right there. You are talking about making it a LAW!! In this case an ordinance.

Why would you stand and sing an anthem that is as old as the laws that allow Japan to take away children. Not trying to go off topic here but this anthem represents alot of different things for people. Those in political positions trying pass such an ordinance seem unwilling to probe deeper into the issue.

Perhaps a lyric change? It's not going to happen!! You know why!! Cause the Emperor is still alive like some Phantom Menace out of Star Wars. Waiting for the moment to rise to power once again.....OMG....scary!!

You could argue that in your family's geneology it was under that same anthem that your Great-Grandparents were killed or hurt. You most certainly do NOT have to honor and sing a song that hurt your family. You won't see any Jewish people singing any anthem used while under Hitler's dictatorship.

Funny I came across that word "dictatorship". That's exactly what is happening here. A group of politicians are trying to DICTATE what they want to come out of your mouths. Now that doesn't exactly make them evil dictators but it's dictation none the less.

Conspiracy theory - there are individuals in Japan who would very much like to see Japan rise up to power once again. After all, and this is such a basic thing, Japan is still living on the fault line of the Earth. They must expand and America, New Zealand, and Australia have excellent land value.

WOW, where do those ideas come from? They're still playing Kimigayo. The spirit of WWII is still there.

Gloobey at 09:28 AM JST - 26th May

Here in the U.S., we stand up when the "Star Spangled Banner" is played and cover our hearts with our right hand. We even recite the Pledge of Allegiance at school. we don't so out of force. It's because we love and honor our country and our freedoms!

...And of course you have so much to be proud of, don't you?

smithinjapan at 09:51 AM JST - 26th May

Forced 'respect' is not respect or patriotism in the least. The government is stupid to understand that, but then they are stupid in most respects.

NetNinja: "They still have a communist party"

Not that I defend the party, they are one of the more foolish of the lot, but it is simply a bad name that should be changed (much like the anthem). They do not hold truly communist ideals.

fds at 09:51 AM JST - 26th May

you would think that people working for the government (teachers) should do what their employer orders them to do.

herefornow at 09:58 AM JST - 26th May

...And of course you have so much to be proud of, don't you?

Gloobey -- actually we do. Including putting this kind of right-wing, nationalist Japanese thinking in its place around 65 years ago. But, more to the point, we don't try to legislate patriotism. We understand that that is a desperate tool used only by weak countries and governments to force "pride".

iceshoecream at 09:58 AM JST - 26th May

...and back to communism.

AdamB at 10:04 AM JST - 26th May

herefornow,

"But, more to the point, we don't try to legislate patriotism" No but your country is more than happy to force its will upon other nations. Which is worse?

"Including putting this kind of right-wing, nationalist Japanese thinking in its place around 65 years ago." Oh and you do realise that there where more countries than just the US that did that

jforce at 10:04 AM JST - 26th May

Most anthems are terrible lyrically. But they sound great. I love the old Red Army anthem that Russia has adopted again, but don't really care for what it means. The Kimigayo is beautiful as well, and referencing the Emperor is nothing more than putting "god" in your anthem - ahem UK and Canada. Personally I don't care about some make-believe being that will save my Queen or keep my land glorious and free, but let's enjoy the tune, and the moment where we can sing together (now everyone join hands - teachers, too! Or else!).

O'Can A da... blah blah blah blah - blah blah.

cleo at 10:23 AM JST - 26th May

I like Hashimoto and think he has some good ideas, but this isn't one of them. The more of a show you make of forcing people to 'show respect' the more you make yourself look like a totalitarian thug and the more you make the anthem/flag/whatever look like something that isn't deserving of respect except through force.

more to the point, we don't try to legislate patriotism

Of course you don't. Indoctrination of toddlers and kiddies is much more effective. :-)

NetNinja at 11:24 AM JST - 26th May

@iforce

Interesting response. Before jumping all over you I'd like to know if you think the Emperor of Japan is "God" or "Godlike". Just curious.

Shall we bow as well? Next shall we kneel? Lets move about an inch every decade. Anyway @iforce not criticizing YET but curious that you mentioned God and the Emperor in the same sentence.

I'm trying to think here. How many other countries sing to their leaders. I really should research this. I checked North Korea first thinking Lil Kim would be so vain but here's what I found.

English:

Let morning shine on the silver and gold of this land,

Three thousand leagues packed with natural wealth.

My beautiful fatherland.

The glory of a wise people

Brought up in a culture brilliant

With a history five millennia long.

Let us devote our bodies and minds

To supporting this Korea forever.

The firm will, bonded with truth,

Nest for the spirit of labour,

Embracing the atmosphere of Mount Paektu,

Will go forth to all the world.

The country established by the will of the people,

Breasting the raging waves with soaring strength.

Let us glorify forever this Korea,

Limitlessly rich and strong.

WOW, even North Korea's leader isn't so vain as to make people praise him. They celebrate his birthday but even in the U.S. some President's have public holidays.

So you see!! Here's an example, maybe not the best one, of a country not praising it's leader but rather it's people and country.
I'm sure some will say well North Koreans are forced to sing this. Well, this anthem might not be so bad since it's focused on the country.

I'd rather keep the brown stuff off my nose and NOT sing Kimigayo praising the Emperor who won't let people walk on his grass.

herefornow at 11:27 AM JST - 26th May

Oh and you do realise that there where more countries than just the US that did that

AdamB -- Of course I do. But Gloobey's post was aimed squarely at the U.S., which is so typical.

herefornow at 11:29 AM JST - 26th May

Of course you don't. Indoctrination of toddlers and kiddies is much more effective. :-)

cleo -- care to support that with any actual facts?

cleo at 12:03 PM JST - 26th May

herefornow - You never heard the saying, Give me the child for seven years, and I will give you the man?

Stand kiddies up in class every day and praise them for reciting something they don't understand, and you won't need legislation to make them recite as adults; they'll get pleasure out of it, and even be proud of the artificial pose they adopt as they do it. (Did you know that the original salute used for the pledge of allegiance was changed in 1942 because it resembled the Nazi salute?)

MrDog at 12:30 PM JST - 26th May

Most anthems are terrible lyrically. But they sound great. I love the old Red Army anthem that Russia has adopted again, but don't really care for what it means. The Kimigayo is beautiful as well

No it isn't! It's horrible and dull as hell! The only worse one is the U.S. anthem, which is a total mess and sounds like everyone is unsure about how to sing/play it, which they probably are.

Although, any national anthem with the word "rockets" in should be suspect from the start.

There have been many disputes over the anthem between teachers and the education board in Japan, with some teachers arguing that demanding respect for the song infringes on their constitutional freedom of thought.

Oh yeah! Because "freedom of thought" is such a widely embraced concept in this country!

Teachers at public schools in Osaka will be subject to the envisioned ordinance, which does not provide punitive provisions for violations.

But Hashimoto has insisted that it would be reasonable to give a dishonorable discharge to teachers who kept rejecting orders from a school principal to stand up when the anthem was sung.

I think Hashimoto is lining himself up as the next Ishihara.

Frenchy92 at 02:09 PM JST - 26th May

This reminds me the debate we had when our French football team players were not singing our Marseillaise anthem. National anthem often come far from our history. I think we have to consider that they only have a symbolic meaning, behind the words, and represents our nations history and values. The lyrics of our Marseillaise have nothing we can be proud of. But everybody is singing it in special occasions. Because it is a symbol of France.

Monkeyz at 02:29 PM JST - 26th May

I personally hate anthems and whatever. Just feel too nationalistic to me. I'll stand, but I don't do the hand thing or recite. I stopped sometime in middle school. I don't hate my country ... I just hate forced displays of nationalism.

cleo at 02:40 PM JST - 26th May

I don't hate my country ... I just hate forced displays of nationalism.

Seconded.

ihavegreatlegs at 02:56 PM JST - 26th May

I never recite but stand to show I respect the country.

amerijap at 03:23 PM JST - 26th May

Mandatory National Anthem for teachers is just like making the pledge of allegiance at all public and private schools in Japan. Just like the following:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the Rising Sun, and to the monarchic state for which it stands, one nation under the Emperor, with respect and subordination for all."

GW at 03:52 PM JST - 26th May

Hashimoto has generally been good for Osaka but this is a total bonehead move.

The kimigayo has always sent shivers down my spine, there are very good reasons why many in Japan dont want to sing it,too bad the right wingers cant see fit to make positive change for their country rather than hang onto the negative with such awful baggage

Whats next, re-introduce the kempeitai??

kansaichris at 04:32 PM JST - 26th May

"The only worse one is the U.S. anthem, which is a total mess and sounds like everyone is unsure about how to sing/play it, which they probably are. Although, any national anthem with the word "rockets" in should be suspect from the start." MrDog

This is laughable. It can be difficult to hit some of the higher notes in the song, but what makes you think "everyone" is unsure how to sing it? Even people from countries other than the US know how to sing most of it. And you find the word "rockets" suspect? It's a song about resilience after a night of bombardment during the War of 1812. I'd say "rockets" would probably describe things pretty well.

I completely disagree with you, Dog. The Star Spangled Banner is one of the best anthems out there, and in my opinion, only the former Soviet anthem compares. I've heard quite a few, and while I'm sure each has value to its country's people, none of them end with the same bravado as the US national anthem. Are you suggesting that "God Save the Queen" or "Advance Australia Fair" are better? lol

Zenny11 at 04:36 PM JST - 26th May

Heck, I hate my own countries anthem and 80% of people sing the "alternate" lyrics anyway.

Don't diminish my feelings and pride towards my own country. Many countries anthems suck ......

Still don't think people(any) should be forced to sing it.

Patrick Smash at 05:58 PM JST - 26th May

cleo, not sure if indoctrination works like that. The Osaka assembley is fighting a bunch of people who were also indoctrinated as kids and learnt free choice a bit later on. Like all those who were raised by mad Irish priests and have learnt to reject religion. Everything else I agree with though. There is really no way to force patriotism and singing silly meaningless songs at bits of cloth has nothing to do with one's feeling for one's country.

willynilly at 06:00 PM JST - 26th May

Zenny@

I hate my own countries

How many countries do you have?

smithinjapan at 06:34 PM JST - 26th May

Zenny11: "Many countries anthems suck ......"

And as far as I know you are not FORCED to respect it in a lot of nations. Japan is goose-stepping backwards while others move forward.

elbudamexicano at 07:56 PM JST - 26th May

This sounds very, very UNCONSTITUTIONAL, we all now the UYOKU, the Japanese version of the KKK, the racist right wingers are up to no good again. We should abolish this song, it is from the past, evil era when Japan invaded many Asian countries and felt they were superior to the rest of Asians.

Kentaro75 at 10:00 PM JST - 26th May

you would think that people working for the government (teachers) should do what their employer orders them to do.

fds is right. These comunist-led teachers MUST be force to stand and sing Kimigayo. Please show some respect for your country, flag, and those fathers, grandfathers etc who fought for Japan's freedoms! I want Hashimoto-San to name and shame all these traitor teachers publicly, they have all proven they hate Japan. Furthermore, they will teach these anti-Japan values to children if they are not fired.

j4p4nFTW at 10:44 PM JST - 26th May

The people will Obey!

Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land at 11:00 PM JST - 26th May

@Kentaro

anti-Japan values

So you are saying forced patriotism is a Japanese value and freedom of thought isn't, I get that, but why do you think forced patriotism is a good value that Japan should hold dear to?

cleo at 11:01 PM JST - 26th May

@PaddySmash - I'm not sure that these teachers were indoctrinated as kids. It's my impression that all this hoohaa over forced patriotism and 'singing silly meaningless songs at bits of cloth' is a relatively recent thing. I don't recall any of this going on when I first came to Japan over 30 years ago. It's only in recent years that some right-wing politicians have tried to have all this foolishness embedded in law. Kimigayo only became the official national anthem in 1999.

@Kentaro75-

These comunist-led teachers MUST be force to stand and sing Kimigayo. Please show some respect for your country, flag, and those fathers, grandfathers etc who fought for Japan's freedoms!

Please explain how those two sentences fit together. (Leaving aside the fact that those fathers and grandfathers did not fight for freedom but for the greater glory of the Emperor-God) how can the teachers, or anyone else, appreciate freedom if they don't have the freedom not to sing a song that has bad connotations for them? How do those teachers teach their pupils about freedom, peace and love of their country (not to mention self-respect) at the same time that they must teach them by example to just Shut Up and Do as they are Told?

You can't force true respect out of people.

Patrick Smash at 11:31 PM JST - 26th May

Cleo, they were definitely singing kimigayo when I arrived 18 years ago, de facto national anthem or not. Yes, made official in 1999, but it was still the anthem and they were still "encouraged" to sing to the flag. It was the anthem of the Japanese Empire prior to 1945, and like the flag has been in use since around 1870 as I'm sure you know. Maybe you're right, maybe it has been a stronger thing since 1999, but maybe all the fuss started after it was enshrined in law rather than the flag and anthem worship itself.

cleo at 12:02 AM JST - 27th May

@Paddy - Being 'encouraged' to sing is not the same as being indoctrinated a la pledge of allegiance. And we're still only talking of school ceremonies, not every single morning at the start of school.

*****at 04:04 AM JST - 27th May

I guess that's one way to try and get some recognition as a place other than that of the countries largest homeless population and a center of organized crime activity--one reason companies don't set up shop there.

Is it because Hashimoto is of burakumin background that his affiliates are trying to prove that they're more Japanese than the next?

amerijap at 04:32 AM JST - 27th May

This is none other than political intervention into school education. While it's understandable for the city council to frame national anthem as a sign of patriotism, it should be all up to the state board of education and schools to make specific rules. Punishing teachers for the refusal to stand up and/or sing national anthem in legal manner does not stop their disobedience at all. It leads to city’s abusive use of power over schools and teachers-- which is exactly the problem academic communities are facing today. It makes no sense to preach mandatory singing of national anthem as a sign of respect while the local government and school boards treat teachers like dirt.

MrDog at 09:44 AM JST - 27th May

@kansaichris

This is laughable. It can be difficult to hit some of the higher notes in the song, but what makes you think "everyone" is unsure how to sing it?

What makes me think "everyone" is unsure how to sing it? Er, I don't know, maybe things like people singing the wrong words at your countries largest sporting event, that is being televised all over the world?

Are you suggesting that "God Save the Queen" or "Advance Australia Fair" are better? lol

No. I didn't say any countries national anthem was better.

lucabrasi at 10:44 AM JST - 27th May

Why no just keep the tune and ditch the lyrics? The Spanish did after Franco died and they seem to be surviving okay

jforce at 11:26 AM JST - 27th May

Agree with @lucabrasi: Let's just keep the tune and ditch the lyrics, or change them to something sweet and cuddly for all.

Osaka passes ordinance obliging teachers to stand, sing 'Kimigayo'

Saturday 04th June, 07:15 AM JST

OSAKA —

An ordinance obliging teachers and school staffers to stand and sing the ‘‘Kimigayo’’ national anthem during school ceremonies cleared the Osaka prefectural assembly Friday, becoming the first such local regulation in Japan and which is likely to cause ripples in educational circles nationwide.

There have been numerous disputes over the anthem between teachers and education boards in the country, with some teachers arguing that demanding they stand and sing the song infringes on their constitutionally guaranteed freedom of thought and conscience.

The ordinance was sponsored by the local political group Osaka Ishin no Kai led by Gov. Toru Hashimoto and approved on sole support from the group which holds a majority in the assembly.

With the lyrics including a wish for the eternal reign of the emperor, ‘‘Kimigayo,’’ ... is seen by critics as a symbol of Japan’s past imperialism and militarism.

But the Supreme Court determined Monday it is constitutional that a school principal made teachers and staffers stand and sing ‘‘Kimigayo’’ at a graduation ceremony.

Teachers at public schools in Osaka Prefecture are subject to the new ordinance, which states ‘‘Kimigayo’’ is sung by standing up at school ceremonies but does not provide punitive provisions for violations.

Hashimoto has said, however, his government would consider giving a dishonorable discharge to teachers and staffers who refused to stand during the anthem, and is aiming to enact another ordinance that stipulates punishment …

…

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Comments

BlueWitch at 09:24 AM JST - 4th June

The ordinance is aimed to help make children who will lead the next generation respect tradition and love the nation and their hometowns, and to tighten discipline at schools, it says.

This country is NO better than North Korea or China. The next thing you know, they'll be arresting protestors in front of NHK and throwing them in jail over freedom of speech. How shameful is getting to be japanese nowadays. I can't wait for all these "old people" to die fast so the younger generation can step in and get rid off all these war tainted patriotism and stupidity. Enough of this shameless and destructive "old generation" in positions of authority, they are ruining this country!

Nessie at 09:34 AM JST - 4th June

The ordinance is aimed to help make children who will lead the next generation respect tradition and love the nation and their hometowns, and to tighten discipline at schools, it says.

The sweetest, truest love of them all: compulsory love.

Osakadaz at 09:42 AM JST - 4th June

Hashimoto is the young fresh face of Japanese right-wing politics.I firmly expect him to be PM within 5 years.For all his big words and ideas I haven't seen any real change in Osaka thus far..typical populist.Singing the anthem is not a terrible thing in itself, but it should be a personal choice.

sf2k at 09:48 AM JST - 4th June

it'll match everyone's blank eyes and smiles

Kabukilover at 09:59 AM JST - 4th June

What this will teach teachers and pupils alike is not love and respect for their country but fear. Fear eventually turns into contempt, not love. That is what will happen in this case. You can force people to sing anything if you terrify them enough. But I promise you that what the teachers and their pupils sing in public and say in private will be two radically different things.

*****at 10:02 AM JST - 4th June

Down with the neo-fascist "Restorationists" in grubby Osaka.

YongYang at 11:07 AM JST - 4th June

Not good.

***** at 11:32 AM JST - 4th June

> a dishonorable discharge to teachers >

is that a sign of militarism in the education system???

it would be absurd and ridicules if this weren't part of a concerted effort by this faction of demagogues to undermine open society in Japan.

tmarie at 11:43 AM JST - 4th June

Pathetic.n He needs to worry about the homeless and businesses than this crap.

***** at 11:43 AM JST - 4th June

Hashimoto has said, however, his government would consider giving a dishonorable discharge to teachers and staffers who refused to stand during the anthem

...quote function

minello7 at 11:51 AM JST - 4th June

Respect ,such a small word with a big meaning, respect we learn from our elders ie: parents, teachers and society. All over the world respect is disappearing,ask those teachers of our children about respect, whether respect is in all those classrooms in the inner cities of the world and you 'd be surprised at the answers.Teachers are abused, threatened and attacked, is that respect. Asking teachers to stand is not about freedom of expression it about showing others and the children they teach that you have self respect. Mr Hashimoto is one of those people that japan needs right now,people seem to forget that Hashimoto is a big family man,plus a big family,he knows whats going on.He hears from his wife and children what is really happening on the street.He cares, not like some of the politicians whose names have been thrown about on these forums.Yes ,he steps on toes,upsets people but thats what you need if things are going to change. Well done Hashimoto,and as was mentioned, he'd make a good PM.

SamuraiBlue at 12:06 PM JST - 4th June

I wonder how children sees when their teachers are not standing when the national anthem is played? Are not teachers suppose to be an example to the children they guide? They can express their ideological difference somewhere else but in class they are forfeiting their obligations to guide their students in proper social conduct.

NetNinja at 12:35 PM JST - 4th June

The Word of the Day is: Self-Destruction

NetNinja raps: Today's topic is Self-Destruction It's really not the JT audience that bugging. It's one or two suckers, ignorant brothers. Trying to take away from one another You get caught in the mid. So to crush your freedoms here's what they did. They got themselves together so that you can't unite Or fight for what's right.

Okay, enough. Seriously though. We've got front row seats to the end of freedom. I don't understand this lust for power. Is there a kid in my class who dreams of telling everybody what they can do and say?

I understand why you won't give foreigners the right to vote. I most certainly would not vote for anyone who would seek to take our rights away.

As for the national pride argument, you aren't going to get national pride by forcing by forcing them to sing Kimigayo.
You want the kids to have pride in their nation? Here's a few random ideas that come to mind.

Try winning some gold medals at the Olympics.
Try developing safer, cleaner energy and give up nuclear power. Try helping those displaced victims of the earthquake and tsunami so they don't have to sell themselves in Tokyo Bars. Try cleaning up all the pornograply and improve the public image of your women. Try making laws that are not gender-specific in nature.

The list could go on and on. You just lost your freedom. To the casual reader of this I know it doesn't seem like it should be a big deal. You can't see the immediate ripple effect but believe me, you have lost a lot more than you think this day.

Funny, they chose the word "dishonorable discharge" for a national anthem that is Imperialistic and Militiristic in nature.

presto345 at 01:30 PM JST - 4th June

The nation's flag and the national anthem deserve respect. They do in every country. At ceremonies carrying some importance you show that respect and do not use the occasion to express your misguided 'freedom rights'. You can do that in other ways. The armchair/keyboard educators have no clue.

Bizzle at 01:43 PM JST - 4th June

People should be allowed to show respect for others if they wish not force it upon others. If someone takes standing for the anthem a good thing and to them it shows respect for their nation they should be allowed to do so just as people who see the anthem as a bad thing should be allowed to not give their respect. In the United States people stand for the anthem to show respect to their nation but a lot of people here stand so they don't look bad in public. No nation has a government that 100% of the people agree on. The same goes for respect, not everybody respects their country. I don't see why people have to show respect to something they don't agree to. I believe this goes against freedom of expression.

presto345 at 01:50 PM JST - 4th June

I don't see why people have to show respect to something they don't agree to. I believe this goes against freedom of expression.

You don' seem to nor wish to understand. Someone can choose to disrespect the symbols of his/her nation, disrespect authority, disrespect tradition, cohesion in society, traffic rules, other people's rights. Sure. But, and here is the big but, these people have no business choosing to be a teacher, an educator.

illsayit at 02:27 PM JST - 4th June

@minello-your thoughts on a big family are interesting, but in Hashimoto's case wrong. Why do you think he is getting so much shove these recent years? Because exactly as you say, he is large family, and fits the needed image. And especially in Osaka. But his opinion is going to send the community the other way. They will see him preaching to others about how to be respectful and all they will see is his very family providing pay-packet, and think he is so full of himself-which in Hashimoto's case isnt wrong, he has patriotic fever on the brain, despite his educational background. And probably not despite of, because of. Because of how it was presented. Because they are playing spin the wheel Jewish games. But there is a slim chance for the powers of good yet......and I could be wrong. I liked Hashimoto at first, but his recent moves like this are just plain wrong. Education in schools needs a complete overhaul in my opinion-it's history just lies with....was it Prussian, gaol like facilities. Now juku's, if they were like they started out, would be a lot more ideal.And that should deal with presto's narrow-minded tunnel-visioned educator opinion.

cleo at 02:47 PM JST - 4th June

The ordinance is aimed to help make children who will lead the next generation respect tradition and love the nation

It will have the opposite effect.

Are not teachers suppose to be an example to the children they guide? They can express their ideological difference somewhere else

I'd like to think they are. Surely a teacher who does one thing in class and expresses the opposite view somewhere else is being a hypocrite, teaching kids the doctrine of whaddeva? Is that what we want?

Pirateking at 02:56 PM JST - 4th June

Someone can choose to disrespect the symbols of his/her nation, disrespect authority, disrespect tradition, cohesion in society, traffic rules, other people's rights.

When you throw all these things together its pretty obvious you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

disrespect traffic rules, other people's rights ?

Ridiculous. First and foremost this is not about doing something but the choice not to do something that infringes on someone`s inner beliefs and nothing else. Would you wear shirts with swastikas and burning people at work if your boss asks you to ?

But, and here is the big but, these people have no business choosing to be a teacher, an educator.

And thats where you are wrong then even in Japan being a teacher is not like being in a totalitarian military where people give up their individuality and freedom at the door. This whole move reeks like mindcontrol by pathetic nationalists who don't tolerate any other views than their own.

I do see the number of teachers getting sick on days that require this nonsense to rise sharply...

:-)

PS: enforced respect is no respect and only creates discontent

Scrote at 03:30 PM JST - 4th June

To show their contempt for the Supreme Court and Osaka Government teachers may wish to sing wildly out of tune or out of time to the music.

Seiharinokaze at 03:44 PM JST - 4th June

Obliging teachers to stand and sing something is part of curriculum. We generally don't feel anything special (rather than squirm with insipidness) while singing Kimigayo in front of the national flag.

sojherde at 04:15 PM JST - 4th June

Why do these politicians not first demonstrate their respect to the emperor who does not appreciate the idea of forcing people to stand up,when singing the national anthem.How much do these guys really love their country when they ignore the head of their country?

presto345 at 04:34 PM JST - 4th June

When you throw all these things together its pretty obvious you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. >>disrespect traffic rules, other people's rights ?>>Ridiculous. First and foremost this is not about doing something but the choice not to do something that infringes on someone`s inner beliefs and nothing else. Would you wear shirts with swastikas and burning people at work if your boss asks you to ?

Sure , it is ridiculous. On your frequency.

And thats where you are wrong then even in Japan being a teacher is not like being in a totalitarian military where people give up their individuality and freedom at the door. This whole move reeks like mindcontrol by pathetic nationalists who don't tolerate any other views than their own.

Totalitarian military, mind control, pathetic nationalists, not tolerate . . . Wow, you sure know how to choose your idiom. As far as I am concerned you win the argument, because who could argue with someone like you? Being on a totally different frequency, planet.

hatsoff at 04:37 PM JST - 4th June

Well said, SamuraiBlue

and Presto345

Piglet at 05:03 PM JST - 4th June

I never stood up for my national anthem and I don't think many of my fellow citizens do either. This doesn't mean I am a bad citizen: I always paid my taxes and respected the law, I am helping my neighbors, I provide income for my family, I have volunteered in several charities, I don't try to evade my responsibilities when facing them. However I don't owe any allegiance to my government (only to the people and the human race in general), therefore I don't see any need to respect a national anthem or a flag. In a democratic country, you cannot be forced allegiance to a government.

I don't know of ANY democratic country that legally imposes standing and singing when the national anthem is played. Even in countries where national symbols are respected (like the US), it is more a custom than a legal requirement. I sincerely doubt this Osaka law is constitutional and I believe this is not the end of the story.

Concerning the idea that it would help students feel respect for the country, I have only one thing to say: respect cannot be forced, it has to be earned. If the Japanese politicians want the young generations to respect the country, they should first show the good example and fight corruption, fight for local and international human rights, guarantee freedom of expression, reform the legal and business environment (by providing more business freedom and cutting the red tape), etc...

Patrick Smash at 05:23 PM JST - 4th June

How can you honestly force people to like and respect things. That is absurd. Stand up and sing at your flag or be sacked. Go build bridge now...

Patrick Smash at 05:25 PM JST - 4th June

Are they going to have to pass a law banning teachers from having sore throats and colds now too?

Osakadaz at 05:38 PM JST - 4th June

There are thousands of Japanese of Korean ancestry here in Osaka who were born here, pay taxes and are vital cogs in the community. However, they are considered 'new Japanese' and carry alien cards often until they turn 20 and can decide which nationality to choose. Many are descendants of ppl who were forcibly brought to Japan as labour. So despite speaking nothing but Japanese and being born here, they are treated as special gaijin and cannot vote unless they change their nationality. Should they bow their heads and sing the anthem of their country of birth that disowns them? Some people may not see the trauma of these kids having to hide their passports when they do overseas school trips but I do.If Japan wants to foster national pride, they might want to begin by granting citizenship to those born here, for starters. And most of the gripes are with the words in the anthem, not the flag. Not agreeing with something is not the same as disrespect. Hashimoto is a love-me-do poster boy who talks big but has done little for Osaka in practical terms. His Eigotown idea.Selling Itami airport. Big talker but it is only part of his plan to be PM. So he gets a bigger family allowance than most.. I know single mums with big families. They probably have their ear closer to the street and graft harder than this celebrity lawyer.He just knows that it has worked for Ishihara and follows suit.

buggerlugs at 06:05 PM JST - 4th June

I will stand and sing kimigayo happily wishing the emperor of japan a long life. We do this in England. If one does not want to stand then they should avoid the event. (I am British FYI) This is part of a teachers job, in my humble opinion. In my school, my games teacher was a Muslim but he would always sing the Christian hymes with us at assembly I suppose because it was part of his job. (although I never questioned this when I was but a wee one) I do not like the idea of a law that states one must stand though. That just smacks of dictatorship to me. I wonder if mr. Hashimoto will next get a cool hair cut like Kim Jong.

Patrick Smash at 07:46 PM JST - 4th June

buggerluggs, it's the being forced bit. I'm a Brit too, well a Mick Brit, and I never once was asked to sing the national anthem at school. We don't have all these ceremonies and when we do they don't involve the national anthem.

SamuraiBlue at 08:12 PM JST - 4th June

I wonder what will happen if teachers did not stand when the national anthem was played at graduation ceremony at school in your country? Further what will happen if students followed the example of their teachers and not stand? What will the parents say to this behavior seeing it with their own eyes?

Patrick Smash at 08:45 PM JST - 4th June

We don't have graduation ceremonies at schools in the UK and so the problem does not arise so much. There is no law in my country that forces people to sing that silly song about the queen at our flag.

Cricky at 08:59 PM JST - 4th June

Maybe the Law is more about securing cash (nod nod wink wink) donations from "construction" companies, Aftre all more has been done in the past for less. Love me or I kill you, has always won the day

buggerlugs at 09:16 PM JST - 4th June

@patrick smash. Yeah. I understand. Like I said on my last sentence, I hate the idea that it has to be forced. I still feel that the teachers should show respect, even if only lip service, it is their chosen profession. University is the place to get rebellious.
@samuraiblue. In the uk we Do not have grad ceremonies like patrick said, but we do sit through religiously orientated assemblies once a week (in most schools) to praise "god". I was not raised a Christian, my parents never forced upon me these values but if I had shown disrespect by disrupting the asembly I think my mother would have said a few choice things. I can't even imagine a teacher refusing to take part. But I still do not think it should be forced, freedom of speech and personal expression are being surpressed and that is a scary message.

Shumatsu_Samurai at 09:17 PM JST - 4th June

some teachers arguing that demanding they stand and sing the song infringes on their constitutionally guaranteed freedom of thought and conscience

What if teachers similarly refused to teach evolution because of their religious beliefs?

In my view, if you don't like your national anthem you should lobby to get it changed. If you're not successful, consider doing a job other than being a teacher where you're expected to set an example. Because I believe it is good for children to learn to show respect for their national anthem.

I would show respect for the American national anthem by standing up even though I'm not a teacher. I might even sing la Marseillaise (if I had it printed on paper) provided it wasn't at a sporting event where a UK team was playing. I would even stand up for the Chinese national anthem, even if I would never sing it. What is so evil about the Japanese national anthem that means some teachers won't even stand up for it? Nothing.

buggerlugs at 09:23 PM JST - 4th June

@samurai blue. Just a side note. England (Im not sure about scotland, wales or Ireland) has no official national anthem. We have unofficial, "the land of hope and glory" , "rule britania" and "god save the queen/king" I have heard these used on jp tv often, (isn't that showing disrespect? ) You may stand or sit as you wish during these but I will stand.

Cricky at 09:26 PM JST - 4th June

The fact that this is such a problem at all says much about the state of affairs in Education and onwards. As noted only Dictatorships do things like this.

tmarie at 09:30 PM JST - 4th June

So do the ALTs and other foreign "teachers" have to stand and sing as well??

Gloobey at 09:54 PM JST - 4th June

I will stand and sing kimigayo happily wishing the emperor of japan a long life. We do this in England.

Do we bollocks! I'm also a Brit and I have never - and will never! - sing 'God save the quen' in my life. If this makes me unpatriotic and a bad person, then so be it. I will choose what I will sing and when I sing it. What next? All doctors must wear blue shirts on alternate Wednesdays?

Patrick Smash at 10:06 PM JST - 4th June

Gloobey, I am with you on this. Our anthem is really only used before sports fixtures and during medal ceremonies and we are never forced to partake. The monarchy and the class system embody everything that is wrong with the UK to me and I won't sing that daft song about the victorious (unelected) queen ruling over me. Kimigayo is much the same thing. Some Japanese believe as I do that the Royal Family is an outdated institution that does more harm than good. WWII was fought under the premise that the Emperor was Godlike and needed worshiping. This culminated in Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japan and countless atrocities elsewhere were committed in the Emperor's name. I can well understand why many Japanese object this anthem, and actually forcing people to sing their anthem under threat is the type of totalitarian nonsense that you would expect from countries like North Korea.

koiwaicoffee at 10:13 PM JST - 4th June

Because I believe it is good for children to learn to show respect for their national anthem.

Man, you cannot be serious!

First, as said before, respect is gained, deserved, no way it can be imposed.

Second, Japan has such a sad nationalistic past that to impose that kind of symbol doesn't help. It will be cheered by ultra-nationalists and the like.

And then, why would a kid have to show any respect for any anthem?

Cricky at 11:00 PM JST - 4th June

1934 Germany - singing the anthem became law...then Those who ignore History are doomed to repeat it. I am amazed that people support this, but then again many people supported Hitler. Big jump I know , but the small things add up in the end.

Really what is next alien registration, OH Non integration of Aliens, OH A non functioning Government at a time of crisis, OH Yes a strong Nationalist Government is needed, it worked last time....

Kabukilover at 11:29 PM JST - 4th June

The ultra-right wingers are not simply old nationalist leftovers from prewar Japan. They, like Osaka governor Hashimoto, are a contemporary manifestation of the old totalitarian nationalist disease. They are powerful and they are dangerous to Japanese democracy.

The also activate disrespect for the Emperor by associating him with their totalitarian practices. That is too bad. If Japan must have a Sovereign let him be respected as his role is defined in Article One of the Constitution.

You ought to know that there is already at least one parody in English of Kimigayo. The foreign media have picked up on it and published it in part or in full. I won't quote it here, but with a little creative Googling you can find it.

It is, at most, only mildly offensive, and it is aimed at the nationalists rather the person of the Emperor. As time goes on, expect more offensive versions to appear. Authoritarianism and hysterical nationalism are naturals for satire.

12_year_sensei at 11:32 PM JST - 4th June

I heard the Osaka government passed an ordinance requiring teachers to goose-step into assemblies. I hope this is not true. Is it?

herefornow at 11:34 PM JST - 4th June

Very scary if you allow individual cities to detremine what constitutes free speech or right of expression. That is a constitutional issue. Or should be if there were a real Supreme Court here and not the excuse for courts/justice that exists in Japan.

buggerlugs at 12:01 AM JST - 5th June

Sorry. I didn't mean to imply "sing". I just want to say show respect where respect is due and pride in my country is one thing I have. I'm gonna bow out gracefully here cause I can't find the right words to express my thoughts. The point for me is that it should never be a forced !!

amerijap at 01:01 AM JST - 5th June

The ordinance was sponsored by the local political group Osaka Ishin no Kai led by Gov. Toru Hashimoto and approved on sole support from the group which holds a majority in the assembly.

A conspiracy theory by local assembly and the governor. This is political intervention into school education. I’m totally disappointed in you, governor.

Things will get far worse if Osaka made a move for this educational 'don't ask don't tell policy.'

Shumatsu_Samurai at 02:13 AM JST - 5th June

First, as said before, respect is gained, deserved, no way it can be imposed.

Students look up to their teachers (to a degree), especially in countries like Japan. That's why teachers shouldn't come into work looking hung-over, wearing revealing outfits, curse & swear all the time, smoke in class or otherwise show bad behaviour. If they did they would be setting a bad example. Similarly if they sit down and cross their arms during the national anthem, the students will think they should do the same. Because even if we agreed that teachers don't have to encourage students to sing the anthem, their behaviour is encouraging them to not stand and sing.

Second, Japan has such a sad nationalistic past that to impose that kind of symbol doesn't help. It will be cheered by ultra-nationalists and the like.

Then it's up to non-ultra-nationalists to reclaim "that kind of symbol". It's like whiney Islingtonites who complain that the flag of St George is "racist". Too bad, it's England's flag. Go reclaim it rather than try to guilt-trip people into disrespecting it.

And the entire "well a person I don't like is doing something, so I won't do it" attitude is wrong. Would you stop drinking alcohol because ultra-nationalists somehow claimed it as their thing? Or if they stood in multi-party elections, would you demand the introduction of a one-party state or boycott those elections?

You deal with ultra-nationalists, communists and all extremists in the same way - by not letting them change your behaviour. If you start ceding things like national anthems and flags to them, they will get stronger because there are always people who think those things are generally good (and they're usually a large minority if not majority).

Finally, I don't care about Japan's past. So many countries around the world have dodgy pasts and didn't change their flags and anthems, why should Japan be singled out? Oh right, because they lost the war so now they're not allowed to be patriotic. They have to feel guilty about their past 24/7 until they get a permission slip signed by every person in the world, including those who never suffered at the hands of Japan but feel they have some sort of veto on what Japan does because of events that happened over 65 years ago.

Rant over

And then, why would a kid have to show any respect for any anthem?

Now it's my turn to say "man, you cannot be serious".

SamuraiBlue at 10:40 AM JST - 5th June

Here is the original lyrics of "Kimigayo" in Japanese. 君が代は千代に八千代にさざれ石の巌（いわお）となりて苔（こけ）のむすまで and Basil Hall Chamberlain's interpretation written sometime in the late 19th century. A thousand years of happy life be thine! Live on, my Lord, till what are pebbles now, By age united, to great rocks shall grow, Whose venerable sides the moss doth line.

Basing it as premise that it is an ultra-nationalist song glorifying the emperor.

First of all this poem first appeared in the 10th century within the "Kokinwaka shu(Collection of Poems Old and New)" the meaning is so ambiguous that it can be interpreted in anyway. The word Lord does not appear in the original Japanese text which was put in by Chamberlain to give context but the word Kimi means "You" so it can also mean nation or the Japanese race or family. In fact in the original context it would never have meant the Emperor since in those days the Emperor was given a special prefix "Oo" to represent his grandeur.

cleo at 10:57 AM JST - 5th June

It doesn't matter what the lyrics are or what they might mean. If a person doesn't want to sing it - or anything else - he shouldn't be forced to.

SamuraiBlue at 11:02 AM JST - 5th June

Cleo If he does not want to but is obliged to under service code then he should quit his job. That is what employees of private sector do.

Iwitness at 12:17 PM JST - 5th June

Its kind of funny the way some people who enjoy freedom in a free society turn around and expect the law to turn teachers and students into good little martinets who stand and sing an anthem at bayonet point. I have to ask what is next from these people?

There is no need to rally against freedom and take on the government you know. If you want to enjoy such toy soldierism you can move to places like China and North Korea and enjoy widespread authoritarianism today!

Because even if we agreed that teachers don't have to encourage students to sing the anthem, their behaviour is encouraging them to not stand and sing.

1 or 2 teachers sitting in a roomfull of people standing? Most of influence is coming from the dozens of other teachers. So what are you scared of? Variety?

Shumatsu_Samurai at 07:42 PM JST - 5th June

I'm not exactly sure what your point is? Are you suggesting that laws that make people do things or stop people from doing things are always bad?

1 or 2 teachers sitting in a roomfull of people standing? Most of influence is coming from the dozens of other teachers. So what are you scared of? Variety?

Who mentioned fear? I didn't. I guess that you're the one who's scared. But of what? Are you worried that if teachers always stand (and, God forbid, sing) during the anthem then Japan is going to invade Asia and attack Pearl Harbour again?

Regarding your other point, kids won't focus on the teachers who do stand up, they'll focus on the ones who aren't because they're not going what they're expected. I would suggest that any teachers who don't want to stand and sing (and don't want to be compelled to) don't go to assembly.

Shumatsu_Samurai at 07:49 PM JST - 5th June

It doesn't matter what the lyrics are or what they might mean. If a person doesn't want to sing it - or anything else - he shouldn't be forced to.

cleo, we're all compelled to do things we might not like to do. Whether or not I use public services, I must pay my taxes to the same degree as someone who benefits from them all the time and far more than I do. There's no "opting out" of taxes and/or public services. Or public nudity. Naturalists are not allowed to walk around fully nude, despite the fact that they're just showing the human form as it is.

A teacher standing and singing a national anthem is not quite the same, but it is the same principle - people being forced to do something they might not like. So it all comes down to what society believes it is ok to boss people around on.

That said, I am not so sure I would force teachers to sing an anthem. But I would always stand during a national anthem (I might conceivably do it for North Korea during a sporting event) out of respect. That is a lesson children should be taught - mutual respect for other countries. And, no, just because some people think national anthems are generally bad does not mean children shouldn't be taught to respect them, as most people around the world do attach importance to them.

Shumatsu_Samurai at 07:54 PM JST - 5th June

Let's look at other countries' national anthems.

France - glorifying revolution and murder. USA - glorifying rebellion and murder. Russia - using same score for repressive Communist era, new lyrics fairly ultra-nationalistic. China - glorifies a repressive one party state. UK - same national anthem used despite period of empire.

Now why is it that expats in those countries don't bash those anthems nearly as much as in Japan? Oh yes, sorry Japan lost the war. Evil country, you're not sorry yet, more reparations needed, blaa-blaa-blaa.

stevecpfc at 09:26 PM JST - 5th June

Shumatsu Samurai; The UK does not have a national anthem.

This ordinance is childish. Will it make Japan a better place by making these rules?

Serrano at 09:38 PM JST - 5th June

How about the people who don't want to sing Kimigayo work to get the national anthem changed to something more to their liking?

Iwitness at 10:58 PM JST - 5th June

Laws which demand people show respect deserve none, and neither do people who support such laws.

SamuraiBlue at 09:45 AM JST - 6th June

Serrano

They tried several times before the law was past to recognize "kimigayo" as Japan's official anthem in 1974. The movement were very strong right after the war but nothing was better than "Kimigayo".As I posted in my earlier post "Kimigayo" lyrics is ambiguous since we do not know the intent of the author to this poem but reading the text it wishes longevity and prosperity to decedents whom ever is praised and really does not have any ultra-nationalistic undertone that some claims.

KevininHawaii at 12:32 PM JST - 6th June

Any nation that forces its people to stand and sing the national anthem is headed down the wrong path.

I don't even care what the song is. I don't care that this is Japan.

I do find it noteworthy that less than 3 months after a HUGE natural disaster, with MASSIVE loss of life, the powers that be decided that THIS is the most important thing to do.

These 'leaders' could have spent this energy on helping the many people still living in shelters.... you have to wonder what supporters of this law were/are thinking.

***** at 01:30 AM JST - 7th June

@moderator

Can we have an English translation of the "Ishin no Kai" in

> Osaka Ishin no Kai led by Gov. Toru Hashimoto >

This is a crucial point for addressing the issue of the Emperor as a symbol being manipulated for short-term political gain by scrupulousness politicians.

***** at 01:40 AM JST - 7th June

For example, the following interpretation of a monumental historical event in the history of Japan that bore directly on events leading up to WWII is pertinent here.

The term "Ishin" is taken directly from the term "Meiji Ishin", or Meiji Restoration,

The use of "Restoration" in this context in turn refers to the re-enthronement of the Emperor as political sovereign by a clique of so-called loyalist militarists who then proceeded to use the Emperor as a symbol of religious and cultural authority to put a stamp of legitimacy on the basically theocratic oligarchy they masquerade as a constitutional monarchy.

At any rate, this term "Ishin" is a highly charged term that does not come out of nowhere, and the term should be rendered in English to help those looking to place this in some sort of context.

***** at 02:42 AM JST - 7th June

----unscrupulous politicians

gotta pay more attention to that spell-checker

Hikozaemon at 02:32 PM JST - 8th June

***** - I could say the same thing about "God Save the Queen" being about glorification of violence committed in the name of the British Monarch, and sung nowadays by soccer hooligans and skinheads.

But the fact is that while that may be true to some small extent, the British anthem is known more as being the national anthem of Britain than for its pompous all conquering lyrics. Kimigayo was legislated back in 2002 under Obuchi as the official song of the nation of Japan - the national anthem. It's significance as the national anthem transcends its lyrics, and any misuse of the anthem historically, or by a small minority of extremists today.

Objecting to singing the national anthem in school is like objecting to sing the school song. The anarchists here seem to think that people should be free to refuse to participate in anything in school - I'm sure that kind of school with tattoo covered children chewing gum in assembly, skipping classes to play video games, urinating in the hallways is the kind of school respecting of individual choice and freedoms that many of the posters expressing that view themselves came from.

However, where you have rules, singing the anthem is not a controversial one. Whatever the history, the act of singing the anthem is not political, and not religious - nobody is being indoctrinated to vote for the emperor or become shintoists. In fact, I don't think I've barely met a Japanese who remembers all the obtuse lyrics, let alone understands or cares what they mean.

This is no indoctrination or manipulation of the emperor, or the teachers, or the students. People need to keep their hysteria under control.

Peace

cleo at 03:05 PM JST - 8th June

I could say the same thing about "God Save the Queen" being about glorification of violence

Do people get fired for not singing GSTQ?

krisallenation at 09:54 AM JST - 9th June

Funny that this reminds me that in my homecountry people stand and sing our nations anthem because we love our country... nobody forces us to do so, we do it because we want to and there has never any single person in history who ever refused to do so there. I wonder what's so bad about that anthem's lyrics that some of the Osaka people have been forced to sing it.

SamuraiBlue at 12:59 PM JST - 9th June

Out of all the 693 teachers nationwide that been subjected to punishment for disobeying rules and obligations of duty, 431 are from Tokyo. One teacher wore a sweatshirt everyday at her school for physically challenged students with 『OBJECTION HINOMARU KIMIGAYO』 printed on and carries a signage with the same words in front of school when she had been reprimanded and suspended for three weeks for not carrying out her obligations.

There had been an out cry by the parents to do something about her since she is abusing her position in forcefully indoctrinating the students but the school was not able to fire her due to employment laws & regulations(basically physically raping or stealing is about the only actions severe enough to apply for the school to fire a teacher). She retired with full pension last year.

dracpoo2 at 03:41 PM JST - 9th June

So let me get this straight.....These teachers have no problem with: #1 staying in school for hours after school is out, even though they have nothing to do, (but they have to); #2 reporting to school in the midst of typhoons, leaving their own families unattended; #3 going to school for entire Summers, sitting around a desk even though there are no kids,..... but they have a problem with singing an anthem???

Farmboy at 04:06 PM JST - 9th June

If anyone is interested, there is a lot of information about this issue, which has a long history. If you google, "Act on National Flag and Anthem," you'll find an entry from Wikipedia.

Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land at 08:48 PM JST - 9th June

@Hikozaemon

the act of singing the anthem is not political

If it's not a political act, then what is it? I read this just last week and think it appropriate. It deals with flag worship, mainly, but it applies equally well to anthems, I think.

"For the flag is not a symbol of the country as a cultural group, following certain ideals of life, but solely a symbol of the political State, inseparable from its prestige and expansion. The flag is most intimately connected with military achievement, military memory...The flag is primarily the banner of war; it is allied with patriotic anthem and holiday. It recalls old martial memories. A nation's patriotic history is solely the history of its wars, that is, of the State in its health and glorious functioning. So in responding to the appeal of the flag, we are responding to the appeal of the State, to the symbol of the herd organized as an offensive and defensive body, conscious of its prowess and its mystical herd strength." - Randolph Bourne

Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land at 08:52 PM JST - 9th June

@Krisallenation

there has never any single person in history who ever refused to do so there.

Extremely unlikely to be true. You can back that outrageous statement up with something?

Yubaru at 09:00 AM JST - 10th June

I do find it noteworthy that less than 3 months after a HUGE natural disaster, with MASSIVE loss of life, the powers that be decided that THIS is the most important thing to do.

So I guess you would suggest that life for everyone else should stop? The courts system should stop continuation of their case loads?

Get real, life goes on.

Yubaru at 09:02 AM JST - 10th June

Japanese children need to be taught patriotism in their education from elementary school onwards. If that happened then laws like this would not need to be passed in the first place.

Only problem is that there is a fine line between patriotism and nationalism, and Kimigayo and it's meaning with regards to the emperor is seen by some as crossing the line.

8018FISH at 03:28 AM JST - 11th June

WOW! This is a pledge of allegiance. They sing the song every mourning in America. Making the teachers lead by example by standing with the students to make the students feel at ease. What is wrong with giving Japans Emperor and his ancestors respect? If it was not for Emperor Meji Japan would still be feudal with closed trading ports without prefectures and no modern military. Meji was responsible for the building of public schools giving the lower class the ability to be educated.

Yubaru at 02:58 PM JST - 11th June

What is wrong with giving Japans Emperor and his ancestors respect?

Every hear of WWII and what the people in Asia think about Hirohito, aka as the Showa Emperor?

***** at 03:29 AM JST - 13th June

@Hikozaemon

well, it's not that simple, and the comparison doesn't hold.

to start with, in its original context of early heian japan, the poem kimigayo is actually quite fitting and resonant with the flourishing of the new capital.

on the other hand, when that is juxtaposed to the 19th century in the hands of a bunch of militarists that wanted to outdo the shogunate, and to that end created a cult of emperor worship so that they could control the population with laws such as lese majeste and the like, you are not talking about a typical scenario of a national anthem.

this is really too complex to condense, so suffice it to say that the comparison of the colonial power england's anthem extolling the monarch and the so-called imperial restorationists misappropriation of a 10th century poem because they wanted to push the national back to a time of a "sacred land of japan" are not equivalent.

and just to emphasize the political aspect, a sitting prime minister (mori) made an infamous utterance of the meiji era phrase of the emperor cult politicos (kami-no-kuni, tenno-ga-chuushin), and that has often been the problem in japan throghout its history, some ambitious politico trying to exploit the imperial institution for private political gain.

Thursday, May 10, 2012

Relevant articles and comments deleted from JapanToday website: KIMIGAYO

OK, since yesterday's posting of the HASIMOTO/ISHIN_no_KAI post mentions facism and the like, it is necessary to post some other articles relevant to the political questions at hand that have also been selectively deleted from the ("we don't have a political agenda") JapanToday website.

What complicates the current status is the association of the anthem with the Emperor cult and militarism in circa WWII era Imperial Japan. Such symbols are even now trying to be appropriated by certain elements of Japanese society for private political gain, at the expense of open society.

Again, please excuse the formatting, etc.

Top court again OKs punishing teachers for snubbing Japan flag, anthem

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